M24 Grenade -frag Sleeves

[Mark Holden]

The Pictures below show two Frag sleeves in my collection, the one on the left as you look at it came out of the ground in Austria 2 weeks ago, complete with remains of the original head and stick. The one on the right(as you look at it) I have had for a FEW years, I paid little for it and therefore up to now assumed it was a copy, it has been repainted in Norwegian Army green paint, maybe a Norwegian member can comment on the post war use of these sleeves. Anyway a comparison between the relic and the repaint inclines me to believe that the repaint maybe an original wartime piece. Any comments or even better posts of other Frag sleeves would be great including known repros/copies, thought opinions welcome.

Mark

[Mark Holden]

Clip arrangement on the relic

The Pictures below show two Frag sleeves in my collection, the one on the left as you look at it came out of the ground in Austria 2 weeks ago, complete with remains of the original head and stick. The one on the right(as you look at it) I have had for a FEW years, I paid little for it and therefore up to now assumed it was a copy, it has been repainted in Norwegian Army green paint, maybe a Norwegian member can comment on the post war use of these sleeves. Anyway a comparison between the relic and the repaint inclines me to believe that the repaint maybe an original wartime piece. Any comments or even better posts of other Frag sleeves would be great including known repros/copies, thought opinions welcome.

Mark

[Mark Holden]

Clip arrangement on the repaint

[Mark Holden]

squares on relic

[Mark Holden]

squares on repaint

[MGN]

Hey Mark, You bring up a few intersting points. This is one I have that came out of Russia recently, some of the older collectors think they are "kaput" but I haven't made my mind up yet. The issue that they bring up is the squares not being "sloppy" like the ones found on your relic. But we cant also assume that only one firm made these, thus variations are possible.

[Matt Starr]

repaint looks good to my eyes... Not as rough as some but still rough and uneven enough.
Matt

Btw the relic is top notch would look great in my collection

[reidmuller]

it looks good to me have you looked for a makers mark it will be on the bottom where the clips are look realy hard and you should find one should be BRB 44 also MGN i dont like your OXO one i have seen a lot of realy good condition ones with the makers mark OXO and i have been told by a dealer freind that they are fake

[Mark Holden]

MGN,

I am with Reidmuller, the OXO 44 were around the UK and a few appeared on dealers lists and ebay both in green and tan, most collectors are wary of them. I have also seen the smooth and very exact style recently at a show here in the UK, I have not made my mind up but would probably pass if offered one.
I would like to see more Frag sleeve photos if anyone has them.

Matt,

The frag sleeve came from the area in which the TK Div surrendered, I have some mp 44 parts, a very 'relicy' SS Steel belt buckle. Luftwaffe Licence plate and MG34 Bolt all from the same area.

Thanks for the replies chaps any more thoughts most welcome

Mark

it looks good to me have you looked for a makers mark it will be on the bottom where the clips are look realy hard and you should find one should be BRB 44 also MGN i dont like your OXO one i have seen a lot of realy good condition ones with the makers mark OXO and i have been told by a dealer freind that they are fake

[Bergflak]

Absolutely no expert on these items, but I will share some thoughts (based on "logic" and not the fact that I am indeed Norwegian ).

Norwegian post-war use of German explosives ranged from anything from "never saw use" and all the way up to "still in use" (Sprengkapsel # 8). M24's saw little if any use, and I can't understand why they should have repainted the splinterkappen in Norwegian army green based on this. I have one that was found here in Norway. Paint is thick and sloppy, with a color very close (if not identical) to the Norwegian army green. Your "repaint" appears to have rust-pittings below the paintwork though, something that could explain the color!

The manufacturing of these included a forging process where the pattern was pressed into the cylinder while it was red hot. This forced the metal "occupying" the ribs out and up, creating the sloppy pattern. At the same time this made the sleeve brittle, so that it would disintegrate into fragments when the grenade blasted. Modern copies are unable to recreate that process due to the cost involved. Instead they take a tubing and simply saw the pattern into it. That is why the modern copies are easily spotted (so far...). Other manufacturing processes might have existed during the late war years, but I find it hard to believe that the "slick" model did in fact exist, as it would have been more labor demanding in large scale production, not as efficient and suddenly appears out of Russia! Personally not a believer of the "slicky".

[Mark Holden]

Reidar,

Thanks for your insight, the reason I said Norwegian paint is I compared it to a post war repaint of an MG34 double barrel carrier(that came from Norway) and it is pretty close. Your observation on some pitting below the paint is absolutely correct hence I concluded a repaint.

Reidmuller,

I found the brb 44 stamp..thanks!! a pic is below. Richard Rinker if my memory serves me?

regards and thanks to all

Mark

Absolutely no expert on these items, but I will share some thoughts (based on "logic" and not the fact that I am indeed Norwegian ).

Norwegian post-war use of German explosives ranged from anything from "never saw use" and all the way up to "still in use" (Sprengkapsel # 8). M24's saw little if any use, and I can't understand why they should have repainted the splinterkappen in Norwegian army green based on this. I have one that was found here in Norway. Paint is thick and sloppy, with a color very close (if not identical) to the Norwegian army green. Your "repaint" appears to have rust-pittings below the paintwork though, something that could explain the color!

The manufacturing of these included a forging process where the pattern was pressed into the cylinder while it was red hot. This forced the metal "occupying" the ribs out and up, creating the sloppy pattern. At the same time this made the sleeve brittle, so that it would disintegrate into fragments when the grenade blasted. Modern copies are unable to recreate that process due to the cost involved. Instead they take a tubing and simply saw the pattern into it. That is why the modern copies are easily spotted (so far...). Other manufacturing processes might have existed during the late war years, but I find it hard to believe that the "slick" model did in fact exist, as it would have been more labor demanding in large scale production, not as efficient and suddenly appears out of Russia! Personally not a believer of the "slicky".

[MGN]

Hey all,
The frag I posted is now a known fake, but I want to ask one question. Would it pay to fake them? I mean how much would you get for each? I must say from a point stand point they did do a neat job on the inside showing to drips or anything, very professional. Maybe I am just hoping it was real To the estand section it goes...

Thanks Michael

[Willi Z.]

I most certainly like both sleeves Mark has presented.

And, I most certainly do not like the one MGN presented. Paint, details, etc, etc.

[reidmuller]

Im glad i could be of help now you can be sure its origional as these are the only known origional makers of frag sleves exactly the same as on mine.
MGN im just going by what i have seen and been told but all seems to fit in sorry on the other hand ill have it off you for my stick for reenacting
Cheers Adam

[Mark Holden]

Willi,Adam,

Thanks. Still hoping to see some more examples from other members--good or bad or even don't knows.

regards

Mark

Im glad i could be of help now you can be sure its origional as these are the only known origional makers of frag sleves exactly the same as on mine.
MGN im just going by what i have seen and been told but all seems to fit in sorry on the other hand ill have it off you for my stick for reenacting
Cheers Adam