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**TRAPJAW** · 08-03-2014, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by martin guerre View Post

Just want to show you how can be a good period GJ pick ice....nothing more....Your is civilian issue ....

Your is civilian production as mine.
Why do you think your is a period one and mine not??
Most of the GJ stuff come from civilian market and used by soldier during the war!
The only difference is the stamp on wood.
The waffenamt 103 like yours come from F.N Luttich (BE)
Strange to find a Belgian rifle productor waffenamnt on an Austrian made pick ice.....

**Odisseo** · 08-03-2014, 04:47 AM

Sorry but,maybe,i'm stupid....
Both of them have the same brands,STUBAI inside diamond!
The only difference are unit marking.
I'm always suspicious about marking on wood....but this is my "paranoia".
Martin Guerre why do you think they are different?
What's the difference that makes your a good war period example,and the trapjaw's axe not?!
Thank you
Regards

**Odisseo** · 08-03-2014, 06:20 AM

I was hoping for a reasonable answer ......

**Gebirgsjgr** · 08-03-2014, 07:31 AM

Cataloging Period Mountain/Snow Equipment

Just as a matter of terminology, I think we should make some distinctions concerning civilian and military - and maybe we should use some additional terms?

Many items issued to the soldier were produced specifically for the military using their (the military) specifications. For example: Kar 98k, Stahlehlm, Feldbluse. Many items were simply adopted by the military as is. For example: wire strippers, syringes, horseshoes. Many items were adopted by the military with only the slightest change - like a different color or perhaps some extra loops or straps. And, many items were in fact not issued at all. Soldiers and their families would purchase their own items (or already had them). These could be intended for military use (like uniforms), but they may have been produced for the civilian market (like backpacks and cook stoves).

So, as collectors, we are faced with the challenge of determining what the origins were and if they are appropriate for what we are collecting. For example, I collect Rucksacks, which includes a few Tauernsacks. Some would say, "they are not military". Others would say, "but many Gebirgsjaeer wore them while in the service of the Wehrmacht". Fortunately I don't care, because both fit into my collecting interest.

What I'm still trying to work through is just what term we should use for a number of items used by the Wehrmacht for Snow/Mountain operations. Some items were clearly manufactured for the military, using their specifications (Rucksack, Bergschuhe, Uniforms).

Other items were clearly carry-overs from Civilian specifications (skis, cook stoves, ice axes), but did the military impose some modifications or simply ordered more of the same thing? For example, did the civilian ice axe have a wrist strap, but the military did not? Or was it the other way around? Or was it optional for either market? Did the Wehrmacht specify the finish and color for leather and webbing? And was that any different than what the manufactures (like Stubai) were already producing?

Clearly, when the military inspectors and units stamped these items, this helps us out a lot. Unfortunately, these stamps can and have been added after the fact. Also, the military apparently accepted many items into their inventory without making these marks. So now we are left to wonder. There is no use in trying to prove or disprove the privately owned items. You either believe the story or not. Did Onkel Hans wear these boots when he climbed Mt. Elbrus or when he was vacationing in the Alps in the 1950’s? Of course, if Oma packed them away in 1943 when he failed to return home forever, then it gets a lot more plausible.

Whether we know it or not, we all subject an item to a series of qualifying and disqualifying questions, and in the end we give it a probability score. It’s nice when an item is clearly disqualified. Unfortunately, we often are too quick to disqualify other people’s items, while our own items are all legitimate, no matter how implausible the situation. (I’m sure that these skis were worn by Dietl, even though this model was only manufactured years after his death – don’t worry, I’ve got a story to explain it all).

To bring this back to my original thought – without regard to markings and their actual use, can we catalog the specifications of certain items (like Ice Axes) and determine if they were produced for the civilian market or the military? Can we also determine the period of time each of these ‘models’ were produced. This would be very helpful in starting the journey of determining the plausibility for military issue and/or military use; which nation’s military used it; and was that use during the WWII period.

Sorry about the long dissertation,

-Matt

**martin guerre** · 08-03-2014, 07:44 AM

Army pick ice were issue with green webbing strap stitched,not like your in blue with rivets ....take the time to push the search button to do a search on the forum i know that these differences were discussed before on a good thread but unfortunately i don't remember what was the title and I've not to much time to do that for the moment...
Martin

**Gebirgsjgr** · 08-03-2014, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by martin guerre View Post

Seems to be not legit for a ww2 GJ ice axe....

Hi Martin,

We all seem confused by some of your responses, and this may simply be a matter of word usage.

Are you saying that the original photo is of a WWII GJ Ice Axe, but was originally made for the civilian market, not the military?

Or, are you saying that it was not issued or even used by the GJ during he WWII period - in other words someone has tried to change its origins with the stamps?

From that point, perhaps we can better discuss your conclusions.

Thanks,

Matt

**Gebirgsjgr** · 08-03-2014, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by martin guerre View Post

Army pick ice were issue with green webbing strap stitched,...
Martin

Sorry about that. We apparently were typing at the same time. I think you have answered the question now.

-Matt

**TRAPJAW** · 08-03-2014, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by martin guerre View Post

Army pick ice were issue with green webbing strap stitched,not like your in blue with rivets ....take the time to push the search button to do a search on the forum i know that these differences were discussed before on a good thread but unfortunately i don't remember what was the title and I've not to much time to do that for the moment...
Martin

I see a lot of GJ ice pick.
I see a lot of forum and topic about GJ ice pick and my model like your come from civilian market.
We have two entirely different ways of seeing things.
You claim that it is not 'been used by Gebirgsjager because of the blue webbing....
For me it is not 'a sensible thing.
The laces could break or simply replaced.
Maybe it 'was changed after the war, but CERTAINLY does not make the pick ice a none war model!!
The way to change the webbing is simple just unscrew the screw and replace.
If blue webbing make my ice axe a non war model what about FN mark on yours!?!?!?
Rifle waffenamnt on Austrian pick ice!?!??!?!
Why!??!?!?!?
I still do not understand.......

ps.this axe cost me very little,i see on various websites models marked with waffenamt and military ties sold at crazy prices,but the type of construction and manufacturer brands are IDENTICAL to mine.
I've seen plenty of clear ski from civilian production used by GJ,are not good these?!?!?
So I would like more plausible explanation.....
Thank you

**martin guerre** · 08-03-2014, 08:08 AM

No of course the civilians were used too as army issued picks in WW2....I was just saying that the Army issue one as this green stitched webbing....have a look at Juntroll comments on the thread.....
Just a matter of words Matt,sorry if i didn't said it clear ,my english is limited sorry

Mine came directly from a french vet who was in Narvik battle,unquestionable one,it came with the ace screw....no nothing about the Waa but i think it was not added by the vet and not by me too ..What i can say more ?
Martin
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rg+heil&page=2

**TRAPJAW** · 08-03-2014, 11:54 AM

Ok from what I understand you trust most in the opinion of a member of the forum that the same veteran who gave you the ice pick.
However I know what I have in hand and "strap on not" is a good one example.
If we talk about real examples things,then we can continue to discuss willingly..
If we stop talking about a webbing,then.....I leave the field.

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