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**pete** · 06-27-2011, 07:09 PM

.

Only alot of dancing around, thrusting, twisting and but-stroking was all I ever learned, nothing ever about slashing either.

Pete

**WEISNER** · 06-27-2011, 07:50 PM

The Bayonet was not made to make a nice clean and stitchable cut, It was designed for stabbing and TEARING leaving ugly jaged wounds! These type of wounds will kill or seriously maim your foe... where as a clean cut or slice is more survivable and repairable!
This is my understanding.
Kevin

**blinky** · 06-27-2011, 08:10 PM

Well, it's a weapon, not a tool. As everyone points out it does the job it's supposed to do without a sharp edge so a razor sharp edge really wouldn't do a darn thing. If it had a sharp edge then it could be used for other things, right? Yes.....but it's a weapon, it's NOT supposed to be used to cut your food, dig a hole, pound stakes, cut paper or open cans. When you start using it as a tool you risk damaging your weapon. Imagine, especially back in the day, when they worried about hand to hand combat, you were told to "FIX BAYONETS!" and half the company pulled out bayonets that had bent blades, broken tips, weakened blades, etc. It wouldn't go over very well. It kind of makes sense the blade is dull so that one isn't tempted to use ones bayonet to whittle down a walking stick when bored.

**pete** · 06-28-2011, 04:24 AM

.

Fixxxxxxxxxx!!!!!!!! (Pause)

Bayonets!!!!! (Shhhhingggggggggg!!!)

**Viktor** · 06-28-2011, 04:45 AM

Genossen,
The Bayonet was not a multi tool, it is a weapon for stabbing your enemy, you want a Knife for cutting and carving ?, carry your own.

Also when you start killing with it, do you really want to cut up your Wurst und Brot with it?.

In the Eighteenth Century Soldiers were armed with Handers ( Short Bladed curved swords) a hang over from the Pikeman days, most got used for cutting wood and damaged because of it.

How many have seen Kar 98 Bayonets which have hammering marks on the metal guard that faces the barrel?.... I bet many a Feldwebel blew his top seeing a "Side Arm" used as a Hammer.

Leaving it blunt kind of makes it Soldier proof...

**pete** · 06-28-2011, 06:12 AM

Yes indeed, but what happens to Bayonets in real life when Life on the Front and Practicality come into it see's all the things we are saying shouldn't be happening happen! I would say more so the bayonet was used as a utility tool first in actual reality, they didn't have multi tools issued in those days. I can recall reading somewhere, "On Killing" by Grossman about this subject, that bayonets were mostly used for opening Tins etc. But that the Physiological effect of the bayonet was very powerful even while at a distance, as some of the Enemy found out in Al Amarah in (2006?) when a Section advanced on a largely superior force and they Dealt with them! I doubt keeping the Blunt edge even entered their minds in any Armies in WW2 and is why you can find alot of sharpened Bayonets. But, the Blunt edge is the proper design, before everyday life comes into the picture i would say! I have heard directly from family members, if i recall correctly how they were issued first with Ross Rifles in 1940 in the Royal Artillery which had a useful Knife type Bayonet and they later got the Spike bayonet. I really do think this Spike style is the best style even if it was not practical for the Troops who wanted to use (misuse) it for cutting sausage and Bread.

Alot of times now days it seems the bayonet is a cross between Fighting Knife, Utility Knife and Bayonet, and also in those days, and I would say not always were Fighting Knives/Trench Knives issued either. The one guy I know who did the business with a Bayonet used it as a Knife at 1 meter range once in a split second situation he found himself, and he recollected that they never fixed bayonets the entire war but his bayonet was used as a Fighting knife and for utility. If the bayonet is in the hands of a professional Knife man or somebody with Brawl experience, he is going to sharpen it and slash with it over sticking and some Combat Situations see the fixed bayonet as impractical.

Pete

**CWP** · 06-28-2011, 01:17 PM

I have read that the German soldier was prohibited by regulation from sharpening the bayonet, and while I cannot cite a source for this at the moment, I believe it to be true.

It was common practice after the war for GIs to sharpen their souvenir edged weapons, this is the most probable source of the majority of the sharpened daggers and dress bayonets that one often encounters, as well as the service bayonets.

**chrischa** · 06-28-2011, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"Think of when we cut ourselves when cooking, a sharp knfe does less damage. When an enemy is bayoneted, they need to go down and stay down. A clean wound is not as damaging. "

No actualy, a sharp knife does more damage;

You are a great guy and I enjoy your posts but you are incorrect. A blunt pointed object will do more damage than a sharp pointed object.

Think of the ripping of guts from a beer bottle compared to a surgeons incersion from a scalpel.

I'm ex-RAMC so have an understanding. You are eductated and dig so have a real knowledge.

Regards,
Chris.

**Jean-Loup** · 06-28-2011, 06:20 PM

To all those who are saying it should not have a sharp edge as that would defy its purpose.... Then why make this 'semi blade' on one side?

@Chris: "You are a great guy and I enjoy your posts but you are incorrect. A blunt pointed object will do more damage than a sharp pointed object.Think of the ripping of guts from a beer bottle compared to a surgeons incersion from a scalpel."

This could turn into a very long debate; and I stick to my opinion. Here is my argumentation:

-When a blow or slash of equal force is given with a sharp knife and with a blunt one, the blow with the sharp knife will produce a much deeper and severe injury.

-The 'legend' of a blunt weapon producing a worse injury, come from the following fact: with two injuries of equal depth, the injury produced with a blunt weapon will prbably be much more messy... However, what you are forgetting here is that much more force was needed to produce this injury then would have been needed with a sharp knife.

Now a few more points:

-If a blunt weapon produces worse injuries, then why on earth do all hunters and soldiers in the world make sure to keep their blades nice and sharp. You will not find any wild boar hunter or SF soldier who will say: "I keep my combat knife nice and blunt to make sure to kill my enemy."

-Stab wounds in the majority of cases end up not being deadly or even severe. If they are deadly, it is usualy because they cut into a major vessel or the heart. A blunt weapon will have a tendency to push arteries and organs aside, instead of cutting them. The result will be a more messy but less severe wound.

-About your beer bottle anaolgy... Who said freshly cut glass is blunt? About the surgeons blade, believe me those things can effortlessly cut through anything, and I would not to get a 'slash' in the throat with one.

Agreed or not agreed??

JL

**rick1** · 06-28-2011, 06:49 PM

IMO I'm standing by my first comment in that it needs to have at least one false edge to pierce with at that width. There is no stabber that has at least one "edge" or it would be a spike, and at that width it wouldn't pierce easily.

Also I believe it was as sharp as it needed to be to pierce but not too sharp as to hurt their selves, and need maintaining. It is first and foremost a thrusting weapon. Slashing causes stitches, stabbing causes death.

Jean-Loupe I agree with you about the sharpness over dull however it was only as sharp as it needed to be.

**MikeP** · 06-28-2011, 11:27 PM

I think a small comment is due regarding definitions.
In english, blunt refers to the point of a blade.
Blunt means the point is somewhay rounded,
"dull" refers to an unsharpened or poorly sharpened blade.

In addition to the thrust, soldiers are trained to twist, and move the blade about inside of the enemy's body.
The sharper the blade, the more cutting and destruction.
Tendons, nerves, vessels, arteries, muscle connections, etc are better disrupted.
Death or shock comes quicker and the threat from that individual ends.
In trainng drill, groups would be asked, "What is the spirit of the bayonet?"
Reply was "To Kill!"
It is never pretty.

**RayG** · 06-28-2011, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Rick Admiraal View Post

Could be a load of crap, but the "story" i heard about this was that sharpened bayonets could get stuck in the body (bones?) and a blunt one not.

Sword blades were left unsharpen for the same reason. Reduces any chance of the blade cutting to deep in bone makeing it difficult to withdraw. Ray

**Jean-Loup** · 06-29-2011, 02:45 AM

"Also I believe it was as sharp as it needed to be to pierce but not too sharp as to hurt their selves, and need maintaining. It is first and foremost a thrusting weapon."

This actualy sounds like a resonable explanation. However you would figure that if you are going to carry something has heavy and bulky as the k98 bayonet around, it may as well be able to be used as a combat knife as well: so have it sharpened. Dont most bayonets used nowadays act as combat knives as well?

"Sword blades were left unsharpen for the same reason. Reduces any chance of the blade cutting to deep in bone makeing it difficult to withdraw. Ray "

Realy? Since when are sword blades not sharpened? We must not have been looking at the same swords.

**Viktor** · 06-29-2011, 04:04 AM

Genossen,
The Bayonet was/is to turn your Weapon System into a Pike... be it a very short one some times...

All early and some current Bayonet Drill is from the Seventeenth Century

Thats it.... it was designed as a Pike point the fact it is knife shaped allows it to be a Side Arm suitable for Stabbing, Knives tend are used to stab if used for such unpleasantness.

The Romans worked out you only need to penetrate a few inches into the Human body for a kill or disabling Wound.

Of course in the real world it gets used as needed....

"wheres that darn bottle opener?".

**DennyB** · 06-29-2011, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Viktor View Post

"wheres that darn bottle opener?".

That was what the Colt 1911 was for, they were very good for opening beer bottles.

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