Rations! Rations! Ration! The one stop thread about German Rations of WWII.

[ZAM]

Zusatzverpflegung für Frontkämpfer im Infanterie-Verband

These were the card board boxes!

[ZAM]

Jim, as you know i collect rations stuff for over 20 years, i had some of these printed cellophan bags in my collection too, but i know that THESE are fakes, believe me! As i wrote, cellophan bags were used by the Wehrmacht no doubt, but not these...
Sometimes things pop up, like the cheese boxes a few years ago, we proofed it and we thoughtthey were periodm but then i was i told by a collector friend WHO fond them and WHO made the labels! The ration collectors world is small, and i know a lot of collectors and dealers around the world! It`s a mine field!

[djpool]

Hi Dirk,
I think we've been answering at the same time. So we both acknowledge that the Infantry bags existed. The question becomes were the thinner bags wartime along with the lettering. Do you have pictures of the heavier bags?

I remember the bags from the 90s. I think Weitze initially found them. I don't remember anyone else having any. There was absolutely no interest in them from collectors. No one had a clue what they were for. Why even bother making them? I have a 1994 Weitze catalog and they sold for 30 dm each, about $10-15. Not dirt cheap but certainly not a money machine.

Jim

Jim, i am absolutly sure that these are bags from the 50`s with imprint from the 90`s!
And i know the original bags, as you told they are heavier, i found some a few years ago in a WH great coat on an attic, with impint!

[unterscharr]

Hello Jim do you have the image times at hand?
and the example of Tom Bock?

MfG Unterscharr


I can not make imagining some one as an expense makes such bags in the 50s and print from 90´s or example 200pcs now been found in a bakery.

sorry

Unfortunately, no one knows really what it was all for variants and forms!

it is always easy to say that did not exist! but hard evidence to the contrary!

There was so much manufacturer and ....

[djpool]

Hi Dirk,

The cheese cartons and restamped Perga cartons were a recent phenomena as are the fake Batscheider Knackebrot cartons. The knackebrot cartons had a lot of grammatical errors. The cheese cartons are original IMHO with fake labels added. The Perga cartons are also wartime with added Wehrmacht stamp. In the case of the cheese label and Perga Wehrmacht stamp they didn't follow wartime examples. Plus I managed to talk with a number of people including yourself who had the whole back story. For example on the Perga cartons I talked with the person who found them and he still sells them without the added stamps.

In over 20 years of collecting this is the first time I've ever heard the Infantry bags are fake. Theres nothing wrong with the materials and the lettering is grammatically correct and similar in wording to the panzer bags and I'm assuming the heavier infantry bags you own. So other then the thickness of the Cellophane what makes them fake?


Jim

Jim, as you know i collect rations stuff for over 20 years, i had some of these printed cellophan bags in my collection too, but i know that THESE are fakes, believe me! As i wrote, cellophan bags were used by the Wehrmacht no doubt, but not these...
Sometimes things pop up, like the cheese boxes a few years ago, we proofed it and we thoughtthey were periodm but then i was i told by a collector friend WHO fond them and WHO made the labels! The ration collectors world is small, and i know a lot of collectors and dealers around the world! It`s a mine field!

[djpool]

Tom actually handled the wartime bag but never took photos. If the difference between the two styles of bags is the thickness of the cellophane, then it would be impossible to say with absolute certainty the thinner bags are fake. So I doubt Tom would have noticed one way or another.

Heres the pic from Chris Mason. Chris said in the original picture you can tell its cellophane but in the lower rez pic he provided me it looks more like paper. Jim

Hello Jim do you have the image times at hand?
and the example of Tom Bock?

MfG Unterscharr


I can not make imagining some one as an expense makes such bags in the 50s and print from 90´s or example 200pcs now been found in a bakery.

sorry

Unfortunately, no one knows really what it was all for variants and forms!

it is always easy to say that did not exist! but hard evidence to the contrary!

There was so much manufacturer and ....

[unterscharr]

Perga cartons?

here's another variant



Perga- Quarg :-)

[ZAM]

Believe me, these bags are fake, 100%, a very trusted collector friend told me the story of finding these 1950`s cellophan bags and do the imprinting! That`s all i can and want to tell you guys!

I will shoot some pics of my cellophane bags the next days...

[anmarlodz]

Belive me, these bags are fake, 100%, a very trusted collector friend told me the story of finding these 1950`s cellophan bags and do the imprinting! That`s all i can and want to tell you guys!

I will shoot some pics of my cellophane bags the next days...

To be honest ; those cellophane bags are extremely cheap so I see no point in faking them - usually you can buy them for less than 5 euro ( I bought 2 of mine for 2-3 euro each ), so definately you will not make a great bussiness on these bags.

Other thing is with carton Kanckebrot packages as these are realy hard too find and realy expensive.

[djpool]

The wehrmacht stamp is postwar.

Perga cartons?

here's another variant


Perga- Quarg :-)

[ZAM]

Perga cartons?

here's another variant



Perga- Quarg :-)

Is that one from your find?

[unterscharr]

No quelled is on the picture.

[ZAM]

OK!
I never said that there were no imprinted cellobags used by the Wehrmacht, but the well known are fakes, that`s a fact, if you believe it or not. I am now out of that disusssion...

Happy collecting!

[Hans Kristian]

I have looked for even a single WEHRM can for some years, with no luck. I am jealous.

..me too.....

[djpool]

Dirk,
I really don't care whether the thin bags are fake or not. All I care about is the truth. In the ration books we only discussed 4 items in detail that we thought were fake-the three discussed above plus the non standard bread cans. We offered information that made us believe the items were fake or messed with. We tried to provide enough info so the readers could make their own call. We also found out that 2 commercial items we believed were wartime were in fact postwar items (clarified in Vol II).

I'm currently working on another book project (non ration), but I will include changes to the ration books. If the evidence supports the bags being fake I will state that. There has to be a lot of differences between the thin bags vs. thicker ones-different size print, font style, ink dispersion, layout etc. I suspect the bags themselves will be different.

Even today printing on cellophane is difficult to do. It makes more sense to print something before assemble then after. Those cellophane bags are extremely delicate and rip easily. I think a standard offset press would have torn them or at least made the ink smear. Of course I'm no printer. I would love to hear how your friend did it. Tom Bock has a lot of experience with offset presses so I'll see if I can contact him.

Jim
PS A flexible rubber plate was used to print on cellophane called gummidruck in Germany. I guess a rubber stamp might have sufficed with special inks.

Flexography (often abbreviated to flexo) is a form of printing process which utilizes a flexible relief plate. It is essentially a modern version of letterpress which can be used for printing on almost any type of substrate, including plastic, metallic films, cellophane, and paper. It is widely used for printing on the non-porous substrates required for various types of food packaging (it is also well suited for printing large areas of solid color).

Believe me, these bags are fake, 100%, a very trusted collector friend told me the story of finding these 1950`s cellophan bags and do the imprinting! That`s all i can and want to tell you guys!

I will shoot some pics of my cellophane bags the next days...