another late war canteen with brown cup!

[MULON]

About Grossfuss canteen I' think that the button is also interesting with this enameled,is not?

[Luciusdegeer]

Hallo Dirk,

I never said that any of those canteens was 'bad', certainly not because of mismatched makers/date stamps. I did however state that I myself have already re-assembled canteen parts. Remember your military service: when you had to hand in used equipment with some part of it missing or broken, you easily 'cannibalized' another similar piece to avoid getting in trouble with the 'Spiess' (CSM in our army). Knowing that the Wehrmacht was a 'tightly run ship' (everything could be checked at any time, for example gas mask canisters: gas mask or bottle of wine?), I could very well imagine how Wehrmacht soldiers 're-assembled' themselves pices of equipment.

In production, however, I can imagine that no factory kept a batch of -let's say- canteen cups aside, just to assemble them 2 years later. A sub-contractor delivered his production as fast as possible, etc. When reading the memoirs of Reichsminister Speer I was amazed how fast alterations were made to existing production lines, how massive and quick the deliveries were made to the end-user (WH) and how little was wasted and left behind. Therefor a canteen with all the stamps (maker/date) identical is called 'textbook'. And yes, I can very well imagine how a Kapo would beat up an inmate just to have mismatched a canteen. The KZ-system was based on this kind of senseless logic, just to intimidate the prisoners. But this aside, I think we could argue forever. The initial question was: is the MENESA flask wartime or not. I still doubt it to be wartime. That's all...

Mit herzlichen Sammler-Grüsze,

Lucius

[Mike Steves]

I don't think the strap is changed, I see a lot like this. Maybe the wrong stamp was used or there was no 45 date stamp so this was used- this canteen was made later is all I am saying and looks 100% original from the examples I have seen.

[Luciusdegeer]

Hey Giancarlo,

I think the buttons are covered with normal 'glossy' paint. The flask of Grossfuss' canteen also seems to be painted with a glossy paint. This is difficult to see in the picture. The difference between 'enameled' and 'glossy' paint is this: the enameled parts are damaged very easily. When dropping it to the ground, large chips of thick paint can get detached. The 'glossy' painted pieces are less easily damaged. However, not all 'painted' pieces were more resistant to wear and shocks; Some steel 'Ersatz' cups that are produced in 1942-1943 are painted with a semi-matt olive-green (outside) and red paint (inside), that wears away very easily and rust appears even in a few days. This is the reason why Wehrmacht soldiers hated these steel pieces of equipment (mees-tins were made in the same way). After 1943 the makers of this equipment started to produce enameled canteens and cups, and even aluminium ones, in recuperated metal (from allied air plane crashes etc.), just to boost the morale of the soldier in the field. That is also the reason why you can find late war mess-tins in aluminium.

Greetings,

Lucius

[Mike Steves]

The bottle on Grossfuss' canteen is in fact enameled- I have owned a few like that. It has small grey specs in it as well.

[zeugmeister]

In production, however, I can imagine that no factory kept a batch of -let's say- canteen cups aside, just to assemble them 2 years later.

I found 2 Years ago a lot of unsused canteenstraps for WH canteens, they came out of an old factory. ALL of them were dated 1943, no 1944 and no 1945 !
For Example, this producer bought 100 000 straps in Dezember 1943, all dated 1943, but produced in 1944 only 50 000 canteens, so they use in 1945 still 1943 dated straps !

Dirk

[MULON]

Thanks for answer Lucius

[Jan B]

I found 2 Years ago a lot of unsused canteenstraps for WH canteens, they came out of an old factory. ALL of them were dated 1943, no 1944 and no 1945 !
For Example, this producer bought 100 000 straps in Dezember 1943, all dated 1943, but produced in 1944 only 50 000 canteens, so they use in 1945 still 1943 dated straps !

Dirk

Exactly,

That's why you can encounter late war produced kit with certain parts dated earlier (for canteens that would be buttons, straps, cups,etc...).

I've seen this with first aid pouches. Labels stated 41 or 42, but the pouch itself was definatly of later production. At the end of the war, everything was used and mixed hardware from previous productions was not uncommon at all.

On the other hand, I agree that replacements 'in the field' were also very common. It should be noted however that this was done with items that allowed to replace easily certain parts.

It's good to keep an open mind on this stuff guys!

Regards
Jan

[Grossfuss]

Waterbottle with brown cup

Evening all,
First off - the buttons are grey gloss paint and the bottle is enamelled as rightly noted upon.
Too late to dig it out tonight but I think another of my bottles is SMM 45 with a 44 cup like Mike's but it has a rather weary-looking 4-stud felt cover.
As the poor thing can't tell it's story, what do you think was the scenario?
I'd like to think the maker recycled an old cover, but it seems a load of bother. The bottle and cup look too good to have been in a rotting cover which someone replaced post-war but took the trouble to keep the two together.
I'd like to fit it with a really nice late-war cover and strap, or is it best left alone?
I like Dirk's comments re the 43-dated straps - what would you do on 31st December 1943 with all your unused straps?
Also regarding pieces with one part dated 43, say, and the other half 44 - again imagine the scenario at year's end - use up or throw away?
Similarly think of stick grenades with each half same date but different maker - there are you and your Kameraden with a crateful of M24s to fit detonators in. Do you prime each individually or take the heads off, put them to one side and arm the handles - many chances for mismatch - are they going to compare makers?
As is so often the case, the only text-book case will be an unissued one - which I personally like, but not the "salty" brigade!
Good luck to one and all!
Grossfuss

[zeugmeister]

The mint ones are nice, but I like the worn ones, a little bit of rust here, some dust there, the smell of Russia, Crete or the Ardennes ! Just my 2 Euros, äh, cent.
BTW, i`ve bought a canteen with dutch buttons some weeks ago !

Dirk

[Luciusdegeer]

Gentlemen,

I learn a lot from this discussion. Dirk, you are right in describing the 'mismatching' of dates. Like you said, these comments are just our '2 euros' (2 cents), and they should be regarded as such. But all the experience of all these collectors combined result in a vast amount of information.

I too like the 'salty' pieces of equipment more than the 'minty' ones. If only these 'liveless' objects could tell their stories!

Greetings,

Lucius

[Grossfuss]

Waterbottle with brown cup

Hello again,
Here's the aforementioned "SMM 45" bottle with the "SMM 44" cup.
I know the cover's on the wrong way round but that's how it came and the felt has formed to the shape of the bottle so it's been that way for a very long time!
I see I also have a "SMM 44" bottle with an unmarked cup - maybe it'd be better to swap cups, but that's the way they came to me.
Did you get my PM Dirk?
Best regards to all,
Grossfuss

[Grossfuss]

Waterbottle with brown cup

Pic No 2

[Grossfuss]

Waterbottle with brown cup

Pic No 3

[Grossfuss]

Waterbottle with brown cup

Pic No 4 Last one