another late war canteen with brown cup!

[zeugmeister]

This Canteen is 100%
I know where it came from, I want to buy it weeks ago but there was a mistake so the owner sold it on ebay !
Anyway, as i said, i have no doubts about this canteen!

Regards

Dirk

[Zeller]

hello Dirk,

how about the french marked flask?

[zeugmeister]

It came directly from an attic in eastern germany, so no BGS/Police or "postwarputtogether".
Guys, it`s a 44/45 canteen, so" Hey, we must produce canteens, what do we have, let`s put it together".
Anyone who collect Militaria ( and this is not only a german thing ) should know that there are things out there that are far away from textbook.

Dirk

[MULON]

Hi Dirk
Thanks for your opinion

[John Huff]

I love canteens but I hardly consider myself an expert. A simple question from a military perspective... why would a high gloss finish on a field gear item be considered?

[zeugmeister]

That is the same mystery like the Orange or Brightgreen Bakelite canteen cups !

[MULON]

That is the same mystery like the Orange or Brightgreen Bakelite canteen cups !

I agree with you

I have in my collection a bakelite cup, original, yellow mustard that we already discussed in the forum.

[Luciusdegeer]

Hi all,

I agree with Matteo on this. I sense that Zeugmeister is somewhat defensive...

The bright, glossy colour of the cup is normal because it's enameled: the paint is 'glazed' in an oven. 'Glazing of the paint was more common in the First World War on 'Ersatz' equipment (canteen cups and mess-tins), but after 1943 it was practiced once again in the German armaments industry. Everybody knows the black enameled M1931 mess-tins, that are very sought after by collectors. They usually have no markings, or the markings are covered by the thick glazing. This cup is 100% war-time (late war)!

My doubts about the MENESA canteen body remain the same.

Greetings,
Lucius

[MULON]

Very interesting what you said about the color,I don't know it .Thanks.!

Everybody knows the black enameled M1931 mess-tins, that are very sought after by collectors

Oh yes,I'm always lookin for,but I cant' find it....mess tin is my second love

[Zeller]

Hello Lucius
actually I am not trying to prove there is something wrong on this canteen, but as my friend Giancarlo rightly pointed out, i am always very cautious with things. You may say I don't have much fantasy?
Jokes apart, yeah...I like to analyze facts and disregard nice stories coming with the pieces (especially if they are from ebay...).
Here are the points that we should clear,imo, to legitimate this flask (i refer to it as flask, because I think nobody here has anything to say about the rest of the canteen, which appears 100% correct):
1. Find a little more background info about MENESA. Is that a brand sold by german firm Eberspächer in France? If so, since when? Did they produce only sport/civil equipment or also military BEFORE 1945?
2. MENESA surely produced equipment for french army since the early '50's. Is there any chance that they assembled and supplied canteens like these with late war parts with freshly manufactered parts to them? (just a dim theory)

I am no expert as you are on canteens (although I have had about 40/50 german canteens hanging around my house in the past 25 years and still have some here) because I never focused on them, but I have found often other stuff that germans reutilised: it was always marked with Wa acceptance stamps. maybe it's not an absolute rule, but in the teutonic logics, this flask is out of place.

[Luciusdegeer]

Yes, Giancarlo, mine too!

I was lucky, I found the lid (the 'top', which is always more damaged than the tin itself), last year at the militaria show of Antwerp for 5 euros. Very fortunate, as I knew of a friend who owned the tin (the kettle or the 'bottom'). He owed me a faviour, so I got this piece for free. As there are usually no markings visible, the pieces almost allways match. Only the colour can be somewhat different (black is black, but some are more 'glazy', or more brownish). At home I put them together, and they matched perfectly. Only the condition was a bit different. The enameled or 'glazed' pieces are of a poor quality: the 'glazing' chips off in little splinters, and they rust very fast. The hinge is naked steel (not treated) and rusts even faster. The Wehrmacht soldiers hated these mess-tins, because the enamel splinters could get into your 'Erbsensuppe'... The lid (the 'top') is used more often, also as a frying pan or a drinking cup, so these are usually more damaged. The gas mask canister also damaged the top of the mess-tin when this was worn on the bread bag.
Some collectors think that only a few (or even one) factories made these enameled black mess-tins. I never figured out who is the maker of mine... Perhaps some day somebody on this forum can tell the maker(s).

Hey, Giancarlo, what do you think of the most interesting piece of equipment: the bread bag? The first authentic piece I bought was a bread bag in olive green linen. I bought it for 250 francs (6 euros, rather expensive) at a little militaria store in Spa. The owner was the late Graham: may he always be remembered... Graham told me it was a barn find from the Ardennes, and this story fascinated me so that I went on a hiking-trip to Bastogne with a friend. I live about 1-1,5 hours from the Ardennes (by car). We found lots of things, I brought back a set of German Y-straps from Baraque Fraiture. But that was in 1984...

Greetings,
Lucius

[Luciusdegeer]

Ciao Matteo,

I think your observations are very accurate. The aluminium canteen flask remains doubtful to me, but further research is needed. I still believe that Giancarlos canteen is re-assembled, possibly post-war. Some ideas:

1) The commercial marking with firm logo of MENESA is very strange. This maker was (is) located in Neunkirchen, in fact a town in Saarland. This German province (west of the Rhine) was occupied twice by the French (after the two world wars), and they even tried to annexate it -without succes. In the meanwhile the French used to the full all of the natural and industrial resources of the Saarland. It is possible that for commercial reasons a German-named firm 'assimilated' into this French rule by using a French-sounding firm name (MENESA). With this name and an innocent, 'non-teutonic' logo they could have sold their products in France. It would be very surprising if this firm kept on using this name during the Third Reich and the war... But after 1945 the name MENESA could very well have reappeared,... and it has! Did you mention they produced the French M1951 steel helmets (with the same logo)? So the question remains: is this flask military and pre-1945, or is the original flask 'switched'?

2) You speak about WaA-markings on a canteen flask, indicating that piece could be a captured item that was re-issued by the Wehrmacht. I never saw in reality this kind of markings on personal kit, and have always considered WaA-stamps on canteens, Zeltbahnen etc. as fakes. Weren't the WaA-markings meant for weapons and/or complicated equipment (radios, optics, tools...)? The simple 6X30 binos for example are almost never marked with an WaA-stamp... The only WaA-marking I ever saw on a canteen is in the excellent book of Cardona and Sanchez (on the 'neck' of a flask, but clearly on a German-made piece), never on a canteen I owned or even saw... Only exception are the pre-war aluminium 'sporks', some of which carry a WaA-stamp.

3) The rest of Giancarlos canteen is genuine, in almost mint condition and even rare (the cup). He COULD switch the canteen flask for a red painted one, and keep the aluminium flask just to be sure... Perhaps we'll never know... But I think that this 'ensemble' of flask (commercial, post-1945????), straps, cover and cup wasn't meant for the civilian market after 1945 (Boy Scouts etc.). For that the quality of the cup end straps is simply too poor, too much 'Ersatz'. The Germans discarded and refused even almost everything that reminded them of the bitter, 'Ersatz' war years. Sure, they re-worked steel helmets into cooking pots, Panzerfaust pieces into salt shakers etc., and gas mask canisters into milk carriers but these products were all 'camouflaged' with thick enamel paint. Perhaps a canteen for the French civilian market?

Greetings,

Lucius

[Mike Steves]

Here is my sku1945 canteen with the brown enameled cup. I can't speak to whether his bottle is original, but I have seen many different bottles with these brown cups.

[Luciusdegeer]

I think Mike shows us a 'textbook' example of how the flask on Giancarlos canteen 'should' be. But again, everything is possible...
Nice canteen, Mike!

Lucius

[Zeller]

1) The commercial marking with firm logo of MENESA is very strange. This maker was (is) located in Neunkirchen, in fact a town in Saarland. This German province (west of the Rhine) was occupied twice by the French (after the two world wars), and they even tried to annexate it -without succes. In the meanwhile the French used to the full all of the natural and industrial resources of the Saarland. It is possible that for commercial reasons a German-named firm 'assimilated' into this French rule by using a French-sounding firm name (MENESA). With this name and an innocent, 'non-teutonic' logo they could have sold their products in France. It would be very surprising if this firm kept on using this name during the Third Reich and the war... But after 1945 the name MENESA could very well have reappeared,... and it has! Did you mention they produced the French M1951 steel helmets (with the same logo)? So the question remains: is this flask military and pre-1945, or is the original flask 'switched'?

Hello Lucius,
you went deeper into it, following my same string of thought :yes, this is what i also think. And yes, I mentioned the M51 helmet stamped MENESA! It is a perfect sample of what Menesa was producing in the early postwar years.

2) You speak about WaA-markings on a canteen flask, indicating that piece could be a captured item that was re-issued by the Wehrmacht. I never saw in reality this kind of markings on personal kit, and have always considered WaA-stamps on canteens, Zeltbahnen etc. as fakes. Weren't the WaA-markings meant for weapons and/or complicated equipment (radios, optics, tools...)? The simple 6X30 binos for example are almost never marked with an WaA-stamp... The only WaA-marking I ever saw on a canteen is in the excellent book of Cardona and Sanchez (on the 'neck' of a flask, but clearly on a German-made piece), never on a canteen I owned or even saw... Only exception are the pre-war aluminium 'sporks', some of which carry a WaA-stamp.

No, you got me wrong on this one. I meant guns and parts, marked with Waffenamt. It was an example to brought again to attention the german logics.

3) The rest of Giancarlos canteen is genuine, in almost mint condition and even rare (the cup). He COULD switch the canteen flask for a red painted one, and keep the aluminium flask just to be sure...

This is exactly what i told him on the phone the very first day He could set up an army with all the canteens he has, so why not putting in "Purgatory" the off Menesa flask and replace it with a pure "arisch" flask, if you pass me the joke?

Perhaps we'll never know... But I think that this 'ensemble' of flask (commercial, post-1945????), straps, cover and cup wasn't meant for the civilian market after 1945 (Boy Scouts etc.). For that the quality of the cup end straps is simply too poor, too much 'Ersatz'. The Germans discarded and refused even almost everything that reminded them of the bitter, 'Ersatz' war years. Sure, they re-worked steel helmets into cooking pots, Panzerfaust pieces into salt shakers etc., and gas mask canisters into milk carriers but these products were all 'camouflaged' with thick enamel paint. Perhaps a canteen for the French civilian market?

There are plenty of possibilities. If the flask proved to me postwar, it may anyway open other scenarios, such like an early utilisation of deposit stocks for military supplies (i.e. french army in indochina?) ? The more ground to earth possibility is that just the flask was replaced,although it is a very strange choice for such a textbook ensemble. This canteen puzzles me (Giancarlo will hate me for rising doubts) as much as the 1lt unmarked coconut. Another "alien".

However, by searching "MENESA FELDFLASCHE" with google, it popped up today an interesting discussion (with no conclusion...) about a sister bottle (brown enameled cup, ersatz cloth cover,pekari straps,etc). It would be odd if that is actually the same canteen?


While I was writing Mike posted the queen of all the late war canteens: that is what I would expect to see

Matt