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    #106
    In the 80's the price for a blue FJ bandoleer in Belgium (sold by Andrew Scott and he had a huge pile of them on the floor of his shop in Brussels) was equivalent to 20 €. Nobody wanted them because they were blue. The dealer "wholesaler" who originally found them paid 1 € for one piece. IMHO it is very dangerous to consider that the price can be an argument to define if original or not.
    I believe that there are fake G43 pouches but even if I am french I don't believe that 100% of the "cheap" G43 pouches are fake.

    Pierre

    Comment

      #107
      Originally posted by Pierre View Post
      In the 80's the price for a blue FJ bandoleer in Belgium (sold by Andrew Scott and he had a huge pile of them on the floor of his shop in Brussels) was equivalent to 20 €. Nobody wanted them because they were blue. The dealer "wholesaler" who originally found them paid 1 € for one piece. IMHO it is very dangerous to consider that the price can be an argument to define if original or not.
      I believe that there are fake G43 pouches but even if I am french I don't believe that 100% of the "cheap" G43 pouches are fake.

      Pierre
      Hello Pierre,
      The G43 pouch of Willy Zahn is 100% original. It's absolutely not the same material as the pouches coming from Ukrain or Russia.
      This pouch cost not 80€ or $80 but 800€ In this example the price is a argument !

      Comment

        #108
        Originally posted by edoudou68 View Post
        Hello Pierre,
        The G43 pouch of Willy Zahn is 100% original. It's absolutely not the same material as the pouches coming from Ukrain or Russia.
        This pouch cost not 80€ or $80 but 800€ In this example the price is a argument !
        Originally posted by Willi Zahn View Post
        I bought this set for $500 in 1990 with a scoped 'qve45' K43 for $1400 from the veteran. The pouches were then much rarer than Mp44 pouches.
        18 years ago...hmmm point not taken.

        Comment

          #109
          Originally posted by edoudou68 View Post
          The G43 pouch of Willy Zahn is 100% original. It's absolutely not the same material as the pouches coming from Ukrain or Russia.
          f***, either I am blind or someone is trying to make look us like idiots.
          I believe Willi has this one in hand and He can tell if its the same metrial or different one, I also beleve that Ferdinad made a pretty good and clar point here

          edou - You wearing glasses ?? if so - please put them on

          I am afraid I have to quit taking part in this argumant here because there is only one conlusion left and it would be offensive towards our french buddy here, so I will stop

          Comment

            #110
            Re-

            Willi , it does look splendid

            Ferdinand - you mentioned having found a ros44 Ersatz-material which is great as a lot of those Ukrainian ones are from the same maker/ same year etc ... I feel we are onto something tangible

            A photo would be great but if you dont have one can you please confirm how were the holding straps ? leather of black webb ?

            Also where were the ros 44 markings ?
            were they on the back holding straps or were they on the vinyl inside the pouch ?


            Actually, does anybody have a pair of G43 amo pouches other than the Ukrainian stock with the maker'code bla, ros, etc inside the pouch ??

            It has been put forward to me that none "field found" ones have the markings inside - always on the starp ? Is that correct ?

            Many thannks for your help !!


            yves
            Last edited by sturmann; 12-08-2009, 07:17 AM.

            Comment

              #111
              Comparaison en FR

              J'en viens à l'essentiel :

              Comparaisons avec une G43 Pouch "fuq1944" de terrain (une ferme!!!) et une copie similaire du fameux lot Russe, Ukrainien ou Chinois :

              - sur les copies, les marquages sont trop nettes, parfois refrappés plusieurs fois, du jamais vu dans le militaria d'époque,

              - le "D-ring" est plus grand sur la copie,

              - les 2 rivets du "D-ring" sont pleins sur les originales, tandis que sur les copies ils sont évidés,

              - les deux boutons en métal sont plus gros sur les copies,

              - les sangles en cuir de fermeture sont beaucoup plus fines sur les copies,

              - les originaux ont toujours des passants en cuir, tandis que sur certaines copies les passants sont en toile ! Mystère !

              - les copies sont légèrement plus grosses que les originals,

              - Un chargeur rentre sans problème dans une copie, alors que dans une G43 Pouch original le cuir ersatz s'est rétrécie et durcie avec le temps, normal !

              - La cuir ersatz n'a absolument pas la même texture sur un original que sur une copie, ont dirait du plastique !

              Le cuir est très frais et le plastique sent le neuf !

              Voilà pour ces explications qui prouvent que tout ce lot est une daube complète.
              Je ne parle même pas des ROS ou des BLA...

              J'essaye de faire la traduction si je trouve le temps...

              Comment

                #112
                Originally posted by edoudou68 View Post
                J'en viens à l'essentiel :

                Comparaisons avec une G43 Pouch "fuq1944" de terrain (une ferme!!!) et une copie similaire du fameux lot Russe, Ukrainien ou Chinois :

                - sur les copies, les marquages sont trop nettes, parfois refrappés plusieurs fois, du jamais vu dans le militaria d'époque,

                - le "D-ring" est plus grand sur la copie,

                - les 2 rivets du "D-ring" sont pleins sur les originales, tandis que sur les copies ils sont évidés,

                - les deux boutons en métal sont plus gros sur les copies,

                - les sangles en cuir de fermeture sont beaucoup plus fines sur les copies,

                - les originaux ont toujours des passants en cuir, tandis que sur certaines copies les passants sont en toile ! Mystère !

                - les copies sont légèrement plus grosses que les originals,

                - Un chargeur rentre sans problème dans une copie, alors que dans une G43 Pouch original le cuir ersatz s'est rétrécie et durcie avec le temps, normal !

                - La cuir ersatz n'a absolument pas la même texture sur un original que sur une copie, ont dirait du plastique !

                Le cuir est très frais et le plastique sent le neuf !

                Voilà pour ces explications qui prouvent que tout ce lot est une daube complète.
                Je ne parle même pas des ROS ou des BLA...

                J'essaye de faire la traduction si je trouve le temps...
                Are you serious... what is this?
                Posting in another language other than English degrades the forum..and proves you have no proof. I'm with Kuligow on this...this thread is now a waste of time...a picture is worth a thousand words.

                Comment

                  #113
                  Originally posted by rick1 View Post
                  Are you serious... what is this?
                  Posting in another language other than English degrades the forum..and proves you have no proof. I'm with Kuligow on this...this thread is now a waste of time...a picture is worth a thousand words.
                  That’s the result of a comparison with a 100% original G43 Pouch "fuq1944" (a barn find like the pouch of Willy Zahn) and a fake of the famous Russian, Ukrainian or … lot for $80

                  - On a fake, markings are too vague, sometimes retyping several times (never seen on original militaria),

                  - “D-ring” is bigger in the fake,

                  - 2 rivets of the "D-ring" are full on the original, while on a fake they are hollow,
                  - The 2 metal buttons are larger on a fake,

                  - Leather straps (for closure) are much thinner on a fake,

                  - The loop original G43 pouch was still in leather, while on some fake they are made of canvas ! Mystery !

                  - Fakes are slightly larger than the originals,

                  - A magazine fit impeccably into a fake, whereas in a original Pouch G43, the ersatz leather shrank and hardened with time, that’s normal !

                  - The ersatz leather has absolutely not the same texture on an original than a fake, it looks like plastic!

                  - Leather is very fresh and plastic smells new on a fake

                  These are explanations that prove that this lot is completely fake

                  For ROS or BLA pouch, it’s another story ... It must be proved with original photos they existed !

                  And Sorry for my bad English, Rick !!!

                  Comment

                    #114
                    Originally posted by sturmann View Post
                    Re-


                    Can anybody comment on the differences in 3 pouches that I posted please ? I am confused as why the same maker at the same period would be positioning its closing "tit" at different places ?


                    yves
                    The differences in construction and materials can very easily be explained. Due to the bombing of the Reich's industrial cities (like Bautzen), much of the production was distributed over a vast amount of sub-contractors in the surrounding countryside, sometimes not bigger than a workshop with a handful of artisans. This was also the case for leather goods. BLA (later ROS) was Leuner at Bautzen, one of the bigger producers of leather and ersatz equipment. Imagine how many housewives, children, elderly people and other members of the 'Home-front' contributed to the war effort. Keep in mind that they had to use whatever raw material Albert Speer could find, and you will wonder how they managed to maintain the production standards (with very little differences, but always the same 'quality') until the bitter end.

                    Lucius

                    Comment

                      #115
                      Originally posted by Luciusdegeer View Post
                      The differences in construction and materials can very easily be explained. Due to the bombing of the Reich's industrial cities (like Bautzen), much of the production was distributed over a vast amount of sub-contractors in the surrounding countryside, sometimes not bigger than a workshop with a handful of artisans. This was also the case for leather goods. BLA (later ROS) was Leuner at Bautzen, one of the bigger producers of leather and ersatz equipment. Imagine how many housewives, children, elderly people and other members of the 'Home-front' contributed to the war effort. Keep in mind that they had to use whatever raw material Albert Speer could find, and you will wonder how they managed to maintain the production standards (with very little differences, but always the same 'quality') until the bitter end.

                      Lucius
                      Don't forget too,that you find a lot of difference only with this G43 lot.
                      Don't forget that other factory have also continued to produced under bombardment.
                      And there is not much difference in manufacturing with other types of equipment.

                      Posting in another language other than English degrades the forum.
                      Writing in French is degrading to the forum.
                      Are you serious?

                      Comment

                        #116
                        Pouches.

                        Originally posted by edoudou68 View Post
                        Hi Guys,
                        I created this topic to help everyone.

                        I relaunch the debate for Glenn, Fullriede, Patrick : it's not for polemics.

                        I do not believe in the legend of the G43 pouches coming from Russian Army stocks... It's my opinion.
                        To be honest, I hate this Pouches and I'm not crazy. No, I'm realistic.

                        The guy who had the idea to make this fakes has "golden bollocks"
                        But who is it ? Nobody wants to say ... because B2B of course

                        I'm interest to see ORIGINAL G43 pouches

                        Not Russian, China or Ukrainian or ... fakes

                        Enclosed ORIGINAL G43 pouches, It's absolutely not the same material, fast the same production, it's no a "plastic" material.

                        Soon we will see fakes in this state. They will be aged for deceiving the buyer of course



                        Otto Koberstein Pouch











                        I hope that help everyone, to see the difference !
                        Hi, on this first page are you saying that the top two are original or that all 4 are original.Regards Hans.

                        Comment

                          #117
                          the cheapest of those pouches seen so far (by myself) was £ 35.

                          About writing in a different language than english, I agree there should be only one, but I recall some posts in spanish too... without that kind of reactions.

                          Comment

                            #118
                            Originally posted by sturmann View Post
                            Re-

                            Willi , it does look splendid

                            Ferdinand - you mentioned having found a ros44 Ersatz-material which is great as a lot of those Ukrainian ones are from the same maker/ same year etc ... I feel we are onto something tangible

                            A photo would be great but if you dont have one can you please confirm how were the holding straps ? leather of black webb ?

                            Also where were the ros 44 markings ?
                            were they on the back holding straps or were they on the vinyl inside the pouch ?


                            Actually, does anybody have a pair of G43 amo pouches other than the Ukrainian stock with the maker'code bla, ros, etc inside the pouch ??

                            It has been put forward to me that none "field found" ones have the markings inside - always on the starp ? Is that correct ?

                            Many thannks for your help !!


                            yves

                            Hello Yves, Edouard and all those interested,

                            of course I only compared the pouches which were comparable concerning the same maker's code.
                            The ros1944 from Luxembourg had the code inside, at exactly the same spot like the one from the Ukraine. The belt loops are made of leather, not canvas.
                            The fuq1944 from Wiltz, Luxembourg has the markings on 1 brown leather
                            belt-loop and is 100% identical to the specimen from the Ukraine.
                            And I mean 100% identical - belt-loops' & closing-straps' leather thickness, Ersatz-material is the same and D-ring has the same shape, size and thickness as well.

                            Pictures follow soon !

                            Here below is a comparison of 1 pouch from France and 1 from the Ukraine:

                            They are identical too !! Except for the treated, used leather - like on mine this is the only difference !

                            By the way, there never was one pouch made of Ersatz-material from the Ukraine
                            that had brown pebbled closing straps !! Nice and rare this variant you have there Edouard and Willi !!

                            Ferdinand
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Ferdinand W.; 12-10-2009, 08:01 AM.

                            Comment

                              #119
                              Re-

                              Many thanks guys for your constructive comments & info .

                              Boyou has a very strong point that despite all , the K98 pouch remain remarkably standard and that up to the end of the war despite the fact that they were produce in much greater numbers .
                              To preach devil advocate of course this is not the case for a wide range of other equipment including MP44 pouches or the rucksacs that have endless variantions in the material used especially the closing straps.

                              I just dont know enough to judge the apparently vast differences in the production coming out of 1 single factory as it is the case for those G43 pouches... I appreciate what you said about sub-contracting but I must say that remains a massively contentious point in my eyes.


                              Edoudou

                              D-ring” is bigger in the fake ... 2 rivets of the "D-ring" are full on the original, while on a fake they are hollow ... The 2 metal buttons are larger on a fake, Are the metal fittings on all the K98 pouches strictly identical ? I dont think so .

                              You seem to concider the Ros44 (black pebbled straps) as a legit one . However the rivets are of the type you described as fake - So I am a little confused here with what you mean ?

                              Indeed the verdict by some French collectors on that very ros44 pouch you posted is that it is a fake, based on the fact the original G43 are never marked bla or ros - I dont actually know if they meant the mark bla or ros appears or if it is the position inside the pouch which is in question .

                              Also you mention the type of ersatz vinyl - both seem indeed identical and also matching the one shown in the 87 Angolia publication (well before the Ukrainian horde). The Ukrainian one do seem to come in 2 type of vinyl ersatz, a coarse one like the ros/bla or thiner grade for the fuq .



                              Once again I am not trying to be controversal , I am sitting on the fence and just trying to make myself an educated opinion.

                              So thanks for your help

                              yves

                              Comment

                                #120
                                re-

                                me again - can someone explain me why the marking between the MP44 bla/1944 http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=qkv is different from the one on the G43 pouch ?

                                Does it look normal and logical to you ?

                                Many thanks for your opinion ,

                                yves

                                Comment

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