GJR137 Ice Pick (continued)

[Eric Queen]

It seems the original thread is screwed up beyond repair so let's continue disucssion here. First of all, I will say again that the fact that most of the marked picks that have shown up are marked to this unit does not bother me in the least. You see this with paratrooper material also. I believe every marked 4 pocket blouse that I have ever seen or heard of is marked to II./FJR1. (stab and 8th company only, nothing else) Just a matter of these units marking their equipment and other units not. I assume this is the case here as well. That's why you see a lot of one, and nothing of the others. When Simon and Bart say they have seen a few of these. Can I ask how many you have seen and over what period of time? Have the stamps all been the same? Were the sellers using the fact that it was stamped to this unit as a selling tool? Is there any reason at all to believe that there could be something wrong with them? (of course the fact that most of the marked ones are to this unit means nothing, as I have just illustrated) I just cannot imagine someone out there marking picks only to this unit. There isn't 1 in 5000 collectors who would know that elements of this unit jumped in Norway, and probably only me and 3 other guys out there would even care. If there is some kind of evidence that the exact embeded mark on this pick somehow differs from chain of custedy verifiable originals, I would love to see it. If not, there probably isn't much else to say. Again, not looking for conjecture, thoughts, hopes or dreams. Only what is fact. EQ

[LHR1]

Eric,
Your point about some units being more conscientious (or regulation-conscious) about marking equipment is very valid. However, I've seen a number of GJR 137-marked ice picks for sale over the past two decades and I've always wondered why the company or battalion designation that one generally finds on other gear is missing.

Carsten Fries

[Carl Ellingstad]

The past 5 years I have had 14 ice pick and hammers, where at least 40% have been marked with GJR 137. IMO there is no question about originality of this markings as I have seen them on items from I started to collect 20.years back. and most of the ice picks I have handled came out of the Norwegian army, when they cleaned up their storage bunkers in the late 80`s.

[Eric Queen]

Eric,
Your point about some units being more conscientious (or regulation-conscious) about marking equipment is very valid. However, I've seen a number of GJR 137-marked ice picks for sale over the past two decades and I've always wondered why the company or battalion designation that one generally finds on other gear is missing.

Carsten Fries

Carsten, "a number" equates to how many? I recently saw 2 original Mt.Jg. caps (in 40+ yr old collections) with original landry tags. Both tags indicated the unit at only at regiment level (one was GJR 136 by the way). So, who knows. Perhaps that is how they did things for whatever reason. Have you seen other gear attributed to Mt. units that was marked at the company level?Can you post examples of those?ThanksEric

[derspiess63]

It seems the original thread is screwed up beyond repair so let's continue disucssion here. First of all, I will say again that the fact that most of the marked picks that have shown up are marked to this unit does not bother me in the least. You see this with paratrooper material also. I believe every marked 4 pocket blouse that I have ever seen or heard of is marked to II./FJR1. (stab and 8th company only, nothing else) Just a matter of these units marking their equipment and other units not. I assume this is the case here as well. That's why you see a lot of one, and nothing of the others. When Simon and Bart say they have seen a few of these. Can I ask how many you have seen and over what period of time? Have the stamps all been the same? Were the sellers using the fact that it was stamped to this unit as a selling tool? Is there any reason at all to believe that there could be something wrong with them? (of course the fact that most of the marked ones are to this unit means nothing, as I have just illustrated) I just cannot imagine someone out there marking picks only to this unit. There isn't 1 in 5000 collectors who would know that elements of this unit jumped in Norway, and probably only me and 3 other guys out there would even care. If there is some kind of evidence that the exact embeded mark on this pick somehow differs from chain of custedy verifiable originals, I would love to see it. If not, there probably isn't much else to say. Again, not looking for conjecture, thoughts, hopes or dreams. Only what is fact. EQ

Hi Eric,
I haven't seen your pick but I can tell you that an Europen Auction House used to have swiss or Post-war Ice picks and hammers marked GJR 137;I cannot scan you any pictures of the former but I've been given a hammer by a bloke working for Hermann Historica (linked to Czerny ) which has GJR137 and a Waa stamped on the handle along with a big HV!
Hope that may help
Manny

[Eric Queen]

Hi Eric,
I haven't seen your pick but I can tell you that an Europen Auction House used to have swiss or Post-war Ice picks and hammers marked GJR 137;I cannot scan you any pictures of the former but I've been given a hammer by a bloke working for Hermann Historica (linked to Czerny ) which has GJR137 and a Waa stamped on the handle along with a big HV!
Hope that may help
Manny

Thanks. Who were the war time makers of German picks?

[Simon O.]

Hi Eric,
I haven't seen your pick but I can tell you that an Europen Auction House used to have swiss or Post-war Ice picks and hammers marked GJR 137;I cannot scan you any pictures of the former but I've been given a hammer by a bloke working for Hermann Historica (linked to Czerny ) which has GJR137 and a Waa stamped on the handle along with a big HV!
Hope that may help
Manny

Aha, i think we're getting nearer. HV means Heimevernet in Norwegian or Homeguard (similar to the US national guard). As Carl said, the Norwgian army cleared out their storage depots and this would explain perfectly what we're seeing here.
And BTW, there are still bit's and pieces of wehrmacht equipment lying on dusty shelves around the country.


Eric
I should have made it clear that i was in no way implying this axe is wrong, simply after the reason why, when they do turn up marked, they're always 137.

[Eric Queen]

Thank you Simon and Manny. That is the type of specific information I was referring to. Very helpful. Very odd that they would mark all these to one unit, but it seems obvious that they did. Again, very helpful information. EQ

[Simon O.]

Thank you Simon and Manny. That is the type of specific information I was referring to. Very helpful. Very odd that they would mark all these to one unit, but it seems obvious that they did. Again, very helpful information. EQ

Well, as you know the 2 GD left Norway around Dec. '44, they travelled relatively light and left behind a lot of non-essential equipment. So it would seem logical that 137's store of climbing equipment was left behind together, went into Norwegian service after the war together, sat gathering dust in the stores together then disposed of to the private market together.

The HV and Norwegian military in general made extensive use of a large array of Wehrmacht equipment throught the 50s, 60s and up to the 90s. K98Ks, MG 34, MP 40, 2cm Flak 38, 8.8cm Flak 36, helmets, mortars, radio and telephone equipment, coastal artillery, armour and on and on.

[Eric Queen]

So I guess what's left to understand then, is when these were maked. Were they originally marked by GJR137, left behind, acquired by the Nowegian military, maked HV then released to the private market? Or, as Manny suggests, marked GJR137 AFTER being released to the market. Manny says that a particular auction house was marking "Swiss" and/or "postwar" picks. How can we determine if this is a wartime German pick or postwar/swiss pick?Who were the wartime makers of German picks? Maybe that's a place to start.Eric

[derspiess63]

So I guess what's left to understand then, is when these were maked. Were they originally marked by GJR137, left behind, acquired by the Nowegian military, maked HV then released to the private market? Or, as Manny suggests, marked GJR137 AFTER being released to the market. Manny says that a particular auction house was marking "Swiss" and/or "postwar" picks. How can we determine if this is a wartime German pick or postwar/swiss pick?Who were the wartime makers of German picks? Maybe that's a place to start.Eric

Hi Eric,
I may have not expressed myself too clearly...that auction house listed,amongst the others,post-war and Swiss equipments calling them WW2 German,and they weren't the ones who had marked them...they merely auctioned the items.
I've seen several Stubai Ice picks which may have been period(the ice pick itself I mean!) but I can say that all the markings on iffy GJ equipments were the same,and I'm referring to the way they were stamped on, rather than what they read;GJR137, Waa and stuff!
As soon as I'll find that hammer which I use to break pine nuts in my house's patio I'll post a few pictures!
Cheers
Manny

[LHR1]

Eric,
I'm not implying that your ice pick isn't original - just posed a legitimate question. Also, since you inquired, I've seen at least five picks marked "GJR 137" - although I don't collect specialized mountain gear and only paid cursory attention to them. I don't have many unit-marked pieces of field equipment, but those that are marked (bayonet frogs, belt buckles, shovel carrier, pack straps, Y-straps) all have the company number included in the battalion or regimental designation - following detailed instructions first propagated by the Reichswehr in December 1927 (RWM Nr. 403/12.27 V 4 V) and subsequently reiterated. Based on the huge amount of issued but unmarked gear, this practice was obviously relaxed during the war. Also, perhaps your ice pick - and others like it - wasn't issued out to individual companies.

Carsten Fries

[mufasa]

Well, as you know the 2 GD left Norway around Dec. '44, they travelled relatively light and left behind a lot of non-essential equipment. So it would seem logical that 137's store of climbing equipment was left behind together, went into Norwegian service after the war together, sat gathering dust in the stores together then disposed of to the private market together.

The HV and Norwegian military in general made extensive use of a large array of Wehrmacht equipment throught the 50s, 60s and up to the 90s. K98Ks, MG 34, MP 40, 2cm Flak 38, 8.8cm Flak 36, helmets, mortars, radio and telephone equipment, coastal artillery, armour and on and on.

this is my HV (HeimeVernet) Stubai ice ax....



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