Tornister (affe) guestion

[The Jackal]

Hi Guys,

A tornister M34 backpack with straps.

Is it strange to find one with an RBnr. on the bag itself and an date (1940) and maker on the strap ? The RBnr. should indicate a late war product but the straps says otherwise (1940).

Can anyone explain ?

Thanks !

[Michael Kuligowski]

Hi Guys,

A tornister M34 backpack with straps.

Is it strange to find one with an RBnr. on the bag itself and an date (1940) and maker on the strap ? The RBnr. should indicate a late war product but the straps says otherwise (1940).

Can anyone explain ?

Thanks !

I bet straps are missmatched to the backpack, to find a matching set (straps and pack with same makers mark) is difficult
rbnr marked pack will propably around 43-44 production.. maybe 42...

[phild]

I agree with the response above except that I feel the term "matching" is a misnomer, not only in this example, but in most cases of different dates, makers and even serial numbers.

This idea that removable components to a main item having to be all from the same origin is much more important to collectors than it was to the soldiers who used and issued this equipment during the period. It's really a shame that so much absolutly correct material is subjected to a historically meaningless criteria in order to meet a set of contrived collector criteria.

I certainly would not assume that those shoulder straps were not married to that pack body by the Germans during WWII. Given the fact that much equipment was not issued right away, and in some cases at all, I would not rule out that those may have been the ONLY straps used with that pack. Unless some one can prove that all tornisters came with the detachable shoulder straps attached to the supply depots or that the wear between the straps and the pack body is very different, I feel that no conclusion of replacement could be reached.

[The Jackal]

I agree with the response above except that I feel the term "matching" is a misnomer, not only in this example, but in most cases of different dates, makers and even serial numbers.

This idea that removable components to a main item having to be all from the same origin is much more important to collectors than it was to the soldiers who used and issued this equipment during the period. It's really a shame that so much absolutly correct material is subjected to a historically meaningless criteria in order to meet a set of contrived collector criteria.

I certainly would not assume that those shoulder straps were not married to that pack body by the Germans during WWII. Given the fact that much equipment was not issued right away, and in some cases at all, I would not rule out that those may have been the ONLY straps used with that pack. Unless some one can prove that all tornisters came with the detachable shoulder straps attached to the supply depots or that the wear between the straps and the pack body is very different, I feel that no conclusion of replacement could be reached.

Thanks for you reply! Here are some pictures of it.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jnve/Affe.htm

Enjoy!

[phild]

As I suspected, from the photos at least, the earlier straps show about the same or even less wear than the later Rbnr pack body! My suspicion is that the supply point had bundles of tornisters (w/o straps) and tied bundles of shoulder straps...all of which arrived periodically from higher level supply depots. These in turn were issued right off the top of the closest bundle of each component as the soldiers went through the line! No, I can not prove this, but we all know it to have often been the method of issue. Therefore the correct (textbook) historical context of this complete tornister was probably or at least very possibily the exact combination of components that we see here.

Militaria collectors and firearms collectors are constantly driving for absolutes. I submit that this is an illusion in these fields as circumstances dictated utility rather than one of "collectables" as is the case with cassed proof coin sets and beanie babies.

[greg.hays]

Excellent point, I had never really thought of it that way. How about canteens and their accompanying hardware, do you think that their issue may have occurred similiarly?

As I suspected, from the photos at least, the earlier straps show about the same or even less wear than the later Rbnr pack body! My suspicion is that the supply point had bundles of tornisters (w/o straps) and tied bundles of shoulder straps...all of which arrived periodically from higher level supply depots. These in turn were issued right off the top of the closest bundle of each component as the soldiers went through the line! No, I can not prove this, but we all know it to have often been the method of issue. Therefore the correct (textbook) historical context of this complete tornister was probably or at least very possibily the exact combination of components that we see here.

Militaria collectors and firearms collectors are constantly driving for absolutes. I submit that this is an illusion in these fields as circumstances dictated utility rather than one of "collectables" as is the case with cassed proof coin sets and beanie babies.

[Michael Kuligowski]

Excellent point, I had never really thought of it that way. How about canteens and their accompanying hardware, do you think that their issue may have occurred similiarly?

I aggree with Phil - I would assume that packs were propably issued with matching set of straps by manufacturer - as long as he was maeking them - from mid stage of war german military production was more and more spread out between small werks.

its not a rule - but I did see many of early made packs with matching straps.. - but I dont think I did see too many of sucha sets in case of late packs.

plus remember that sucha item was heavily used - and if straps were damaged they were replaced either in depot... or by soldier him self.

in case of canteen think look kinda simmilar - I have matched sets from all period of wars - cup bottle and cover marked the same way. (like early canteens with alu cups.. or late with steel ones)

but for example plastic cups/corks were made in different factory - there is only couple three letter codes for these elements and You can find them on canteens made by many manufacturers.

also I believe leather harness was sometimes made in separate leather works (altough I do have sets with leather marked the same way like canteen)

just my 2 cents

[phild]

I aggree with Phil - I would assume that packs were propably issued with matching set of straps by manufacturer - as long as he was maeking them - from mid stage of war german military production was more and more spread out between small werks.

its not a rule - but I did see many of early made packs with matching straps.. - but I dont think I did see too many of sucha sets in case of late packs.

plus remember that sucha item was heavily used - and if straps were damaged they were replaced either in depot... or by soldier him self.

in case of canteen think look kinda simmilar - I have matched sets from all period of wars - cup bottle and cover marked the same way. (like early canteens with alu cups.. or late with steel ones)

but for example plastic cups/corks were made in different factory - there is only couple three letter codes for these elements and You can find them on canteens made by many manufacturers.

also I believe leather harness was sometimes made in separate leather works (altough I do have sets with leather marked the same way like canteen)

just my 2 cents

Again, I pretty much agree.

I'm not a tornister guru, however I think that at some point early in the war the method of shoulder strap attachment changed from the split pin post style to the hook on ring style sot of like a partial Y strap. This second style attachment really made the straps a completley separate item, as the pack could be attached to the Y straps W/O the hook shoulder straps.

As for canteens and about everything else my contention is that much of this type of material, especially pre-war, came to issue as a factory assembled complete item. Having said that it is a fact that much of this equipment was repaired and refitted, in some cases many times, throughout the war. It is certainly a legit collector criteria to look for all matching components, however this does not mean that items that have mixed components are not legit historical items and in some cases just as original as the factory matched item in terms of WWII usage context.

The problem is and has always been how do we know for sure that a specific given mixed component item wasused in that confuguration during the war? The answer is most often subjective and controversial. This is why collectors put this type items down because that they want absolute answers. The problem or shame of it all comes about because we as a community are now retro fitting history with only the items that fit into our neat and consensous driven definition of real or "un-messed" with.

I don't have a clear blanket answer or suggestion other than to say each item must be evaluated as an individual case and in the end given the faking and parts switching going on these days to satisfy the top dollar market for "textbook" items I would be very careful before paying crazy prices.

[The Jackal]

Thanks for you comments sofar !

I haven't bought the set jet but I am going to next week. What is a fair price for this item ?

[MP44_tom]

I've seen them for aprox. 35 - 70 euro. they are not too expensive and can be found in great quantities.

HTH
Tom

www.mp44.nl

[greg.hays]

Michael and Phil, thanks for the insight into how these items were issued it was very informative. Equipment is an outside interest for me, so I must say I really didn't know anythng about that process.

[Michael Kuligowski]

Again, I pretty much agree.

I'm not a tornister guru, however I think that at some point early in the war the method of shoulder strap attachment changed from the split pin post style to the hook on ring style sot of like a partial Y strap. This second style attachment really made the straps a completley separate item, as the pack could be attached to the Y straps W/O the hook shoulder straps.
.

exactly !!
so called M34 pack came with issued straps... so called M39 backpack was attached to Y-straps.
in reality you can find packs from all years who have straps.. or sometimes just hooks to y-straps.. propably individuall soldiers preference

[The Jackal]

Thanks for all your comments. As from today this tornister is a part of my collection !