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**FrenchVolunteer** · 01-16-2019, 09:28 AM

Hi,

below is the first model of the SS italian collar tab (courtesy of eMedals), the most available and second model (courtesy of The Ruptured Duck) and the Weitze red backing model (which is made to appear similar to the second model, despite many differences).

See You

Vince

Attached Files

**Dennis S** · 01-16-2019, 12:09 PM

The eagle is certainly a fake . He has had these items for sale over 5 years.

**John T** · 01-16-2019, 07:35 PM

you know correct eagles are rare and a prize to own but nobody wants to learn

**Askold** · 01-24-2019, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

The eagle is certainly a fake . He has had these items for sale over 5 years.

Denis what about the tab? I have always wondering if it was a good one or not. The backing looks ok to me.

**Stossgruppe3** · 01-25-2019, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by John T View Post

but nobody wants to learn

HHmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . .

Regards David

**Dennis S** · 01-25-2019, 11:16 AM

J

Originally posted by Askold View Post

Denis what about the tab? I have always wondering if it was a good one or not. The backing looks ok to me.

The tab seems to correspond with the black Dachau tabs . I have been following Italian SS items for quite a long time . My problem is I don’t see any sense in this red tab which would be a mass produced type . This is hard to explain in a thread but I will try to be simple. The Italian SS didn’t receive formal Divisional status until February 1945 and they all should have been wearing all black by then . Initially they wore plain red tabs as The Milizia Armata of the SS with another group maybe described as more reliable (Debica) wearing black and some with runes coming from other SS units and being trained at their namesake in Poland .
After participation at Nettuno Feb-April 1944 Himmler decreed that the Italian SS could wear black And become complete Waffen SS with all rights (ofcourse not actual SS members) . I don’t think this happened over night and am not sure if he meant all units or those who participated at Nettuno only . Remember the Italian SS was scattered all over Northern Italy also fighting partisans . I’m sure to change over from red to black was not overnight , but at an Awards ceremony for Nettuno regiment vendetta seems all to be wearing black tabs (plain) with one or two exceptions wear runes that you can spot in photos. I can say from photographic evidence they were all wearing black in the latter part.

If we are going to compare the red tab by Weitze in comparison to the black Dachau tab it doesn’t seem feasible that the SS would mass produced a red tab for a SS division that late in the game since we are talking Dachau insignia . Could it be the brainchild of someone in SS procurement earlier or a probe piece , I can’t say .

I saw two of these probably the same or similar in a Manions auction in the 80s other then that only Weitzes which he has had for sale at least 5 years along with the fake eagle. If you buy it I think you will own it for life. The only reason I would buy it if it were cheap as a novelty and study it.

Side notes

I always assumed the black sleeve shield with the yellow and red fasces was meant to be worn under a proper Waffen SS eagle not the one with the fasces . As the black fasce tabs and shields were found at Dachau ,but never heard of a black Italian SS eagle found there and why wear both fasce related insignias on your sleeve to denote national origin.

The Italian SS was also allowed to wear three arrows and a yoke insignia on black tabs not widespread but seen on photographs both portraits and in the field .
They also sometimes wore runes on red but only seen on early private portrait shops so unofficial .

I have quite a few red SS eagles that most are the typical original unissued ones , a lot of mine came from vets that served in Italy . Does anyone know of red Italian SS eagles that positively came from Dachau . Now remember 45th Division Vets who brought back a ton of Dachau stuff also served in Italy . (Just thinking out loud)

**rbno** · 01-25-2019, 10:48 PM

I'm fascinated by this thread.

I think we can agree that the black tabs with the fasces are original Dachau tabs. The embroidery on the red tab is "exactly" the same, having only tiny variations normal in machine embroidery. If you connect the dots, the red tab should then be original. Very few reproductions have white cutting guidelines on the back side. I like the red wool and the correctly done red tongue. The buckram looks OK. The proportions look OK.

Impossible to say for sure, but IMHO it's probably a Dachau mistake, pattern or earlier variation made in small numbers and superceded by the normally seen black variety.

Just wanted to share my observations and opinions.

Al

**FrenchVolunteer** · 01-26-2019, 04:31 AM

Hi,

the red tab design is not similar to the second pattern black Dachau tab. Nor to the first pattern.... It is a bad copy of it. The proportions are also not right.

Also if the red tabs were used at first by the Italian volunteers, there is no logic to see a red model using the second pattern of the black Dachau tab, when the second pattern was said to be the final SS Italian model design.

It is easy to see below that the red tab pattern is clearly not the same as the Dachau patterns... Comparison using the same width.

It proves that the red tab is not a variation or an error, but a bad (post-war) copy that is historically illogic (whichis the last problem of the fakers, that do not care at all about that).

See You

Vince

Attached Files

Noname2.jpg (142.3 KB, 179 views)

**Dennis S** · 01-26-2019, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post

Hi,

the red tab design is not similar to the second pattern black Dachau tab. Nor to the first pattern.... It is a bad copy of it. The proportions are also not right.

Also if the red tabs were used at first by the Italian volunteers, there is no logic to see a red model using the second pattern of the black Dachau tab, when the second pattern was said to be the final SS Italian model design.

It is easy to see below that the red tab pattern is clearly not the same as the Dachau patterns... Comparison using the same width.

It proves that the red tab is not a variation or an error, but a bad (post-war) copy that is historically illogic (whichis the last problem of the fakers, that do not care at all about that).

See You

Vince

Vince ,very good side by side montage for comparison . Were you able to make it 1:1 scale ? Thank you

**FrenchVolunteer** · 01-26-2019, 10:33 AM

Hi,

my small study is not a perfect 1:1 scale as we don't have the exact sizes of each Lictor's fasces model, but in my study each one is having the same width so we can clearly see that the red model is too long, and this is not due to the angle of the original picture.

See You

Vince

**FrenchVolunteer** · 01-30-2019, 12:13 AM

Hi,

well well well, what do we have there ?

The lot was previously proposed on HH 74 as lot 6786.
Pictures courtesy of Hermann Historica.

See You

Vince

Attached Files

**Dmv** · 01-30-2019, 02:54 AM

I wasn't aware there were two patterns of the Dachau found tab...
I always thought some tabs were not mounted/constructed in the right way?

**FrenchVolunteer** · 01-30-2019, 03:06 AM

Hi,

i'm only starting to work on Foreign collar tabs, and i can confirm as I already previously posted that two variations of the Handschar tab also exist.

For the Italian tab, only the angle of the Lictor's fasces was modified between the first and second variation.

See You

Vince

**Dmv** · 01-30-2019, 03:24 AM

Was the angle modified on purpose that we know of?

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SS Italian collar tab (red backing)

SS Italian collar tab (red backing)

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