Dietrich HR

[N.C. Wyeth]

Found this interesting, and thought there had been some discussion of this - but I couldn't find it?

For all the cost, HR rings really aren't "my thing" . . . but this one is so High-Profile - perhaps even what some may consider the "Holy Grail" of HR's [?] - it seemed worthy of posting this image.

[Reichskanzler]

This ring was previously owned by Martin Toman who published it in his book, then offered it for sale on his site, however the price was “upon request” so no idea what he was asking for it. He obviously sold it to oakleaf Militaria. Nice ring!! Hopefully it will be on display at the Max show next week.

[GRENAIDER]

Asking price was $200,000 but the lowest he was willing to take according to my conversation with Toman was $100,000. Martin.

[Byzanti]

Yes I saw it at $250,000 and now at $165,000. There’s no way to prove that is Sepp Dietrichs ring however. There’s an Otto dietrich in the same DL. It is not an uncommon German name either. It is a very nice ring imho but how much are you willing to risk on gut intuition or as a matter of faith needs to be understood as part of the risk in buying this ring on the part of the potential buyer.

[Sonderkommando]

What I find odd is why is it in such good condition? Why is it not worn smooth like so many other rings that come up for sale? I'm sure Sepp would have worn it from '33 to the end, and it's not as if he was some desk jockey doing nothing for those 12 years.

[Der Texaner]

You’d think it would have some type of strong provenance for that price.

[markus]

I own a couple of pieces from Sepp Dietrich's estate incl. a uniform, documents, insignia, etc. and studied the estate quite thoroughly over the years. I had never come across a HR ring before.

Dietrich wore a variety of rings which he kept changing frequently.

A couple of years ago one of his sons auctioned off a few rings incl Dietrich's favorite ring, the gold/platinum LAH ring 'his boys' gave him as a gift.

Never say never, but without firm provenance there wilm always be doubt attached to this piece. Worth paying above usd 100k? Not even for me, sorry.

Cheers
Markus.

[DMS]

I highly doubt Kris Anderson with Oak Leaf would purchase that high dollar of an item let alone with no provenance. Most likely it has been consigned to him. But that is obviously just a guess.

DMS

[equirhodont]

I´m Martin Toman, author of the book "SS-Totenkopfring" and Dietrich´s ring was in my collection before. My collection was 26 rings, including Karl Ullrich or F. X. Schwarz.
The origin of the ring is documented. Ring was bought from a son of a French veteran, who was sent into the Dietrich´s villa in Karlsruhe, during investigating of Malmedy´s massacre. He found there several things, which left as a souvenir. The sale of the ring was mediated by a renowned European dealer.

The ring has a small diameter (19mm) because Sepp gained it in 1933 when he was THIN. But there exists a photo I published in my book – Thin and "young" Dietrich is standing next to Hitler and has SS-Totenkopfring on his LITTLE FINGER! There are not many photos that Dietrich has on his TK ring, but he always wears a ring on his LITTLE FINGER. See below.

Therefore, it can be assumed that the ring was worn only exceptionally, perhaps on the occasion of shooting for propaganda. Moreover, his relationship to Himmler was not good and, above all, he wore his favorite ring, the gold/platinum LAH ring.

Yes, it is unbelievable that Dietrich's ring has survived. But the same thing was with the Bach-Zelewski TK ring (1933), which appeared last year and was auctioned off at Ratisbon's. And what about the ring of Karl Wolff (1933)? Miracles happen and we love it.

There is always something to doubt, it depends only on whether we want to hear the evidence. Whether we want to believe or not.

This ring is extraordinary. Exceptional to its bearer, engraved year and condition. And this ring is not for everyone...

[Byzanti]

This is the main but not only part that needs documentation, but is stated that it is there...

“The origin of the ring is documented. Ring was bought from a son of a French veteran, who was sent into the Dietrich´s villa in Karlsruhe, during investigating of Malmedy´s massacre. He found there several things, which left as a souvenir. The sale of the ring was mediated by a renowned European dealer.”

I would be looking for the evidence of the man who went in to the villa. Photographs of him there, photos of him procuring the ring from there, and capture papers from the man’s CO, witnessed and signed by both men, listing in detail the ring and it’s description, at least that it was a personalized/engraved skull ring of some sort, and dated to the correct period for the French unit’s investigation into the massacre. All the rest is rather interesting learning, albeit irrelevant to the authenticity to the piece at hand.

[equirhodont]

Dear Byzani, I have video from that action!

You can see there: Vet is entering villa, finding the ring, showing to camera and going outside. Then he is going to Dietrich´s cell and Sepp confirms the authenticity of the ring by his COA...

Even if I had such a video, I would not convince some people. Who will buy the ring and, above all, have money to buy it, he buys it. And he will not need proof. That's what I did, and I never doubted his origins.
Those who do not have interest and, above all, have no money, they will be talking about the evidence and doubting the ring constantly. Such people are overwhelming, so there's no need to disassemble it...

Interestingly, the Knights' Crosses, which are said to belong to that or that General, people believe it, although it can not be proven. It is a no name product.
On this ring is the name Dietrich, the first possible date of award, the diameter of the ring corresponds to the little finger, the state corresponds to a not worn ring and you still doubt. Can you tell me, Byzanti, what other Dietrich could have been in 1933? Dr. Otto, as you said below?

1. We have not evidence Dr. Otto received a ring in 1933
2. In the first issue of the rings would be engraved “Dr.” inside
3. We don´t know diameter of Dr. Otto´s ring, but we can calculate diameter of Sepp´s from the foto (thanks to comparison with other subjects of the photo).
4. How many rings with date 1933 we know? We know 4 rings (Schwarz, Bach-Zelewski, Wolff, Dietrich). That there would be some Dr. Otto among them who had not been heard before? Among the preserved rings of 1933, only highly ranked officers from the surroundings of Himmler and Hitler are. It is because they were celebrities whose rings were considered a trophy. That is why they have survived.

As I said, this ring is not for everyone and not everyone is going to be OK with it ...

This is the main but not only part that needs documentation, but is stated that it is there...

“The origin of the ring is documented. Ring was bought from a son of a French veteran, who was sent into the Dietrich´s villa in Karlsruhe, during investigating of Malmedy´s massacre. He found there several things, which left as a souvenir. The sale of the ring was mediated by a renowned European dealer.”

I would be looking for the evidence of the man who went in to the villa. Photographs of him there, photos of him procuring the ring from there, and capture papers from the man’s CO, witnessed and signed by both men, listing in detail the ring and it’s description, at least that it was a personalized/engraved skull ring of some sort, and dated to the correct period for the French unit’s investigation into the massacre. All the rest is rather interesting learning, albeit irrelevant to the authenticity to the piece at hand.

[Byzanti]

I am confused, you have the video... or do not? A modern COA only helps establish this as a real HR, of which I have very little doubt- it appears t be a real HR, early date, and named to a “Dietrich.” Imho COA mainly exists for me as a buyers piece of mind anymore...
do not misunderstand me, like all of us here- we want to believe! Now how much money one has is rather irrelevant also, and to be honest, we have read the very words of specifically the man who would be very interested- a Sepp Dietrich specialized collector. His own words told us he would be looking for a very strong provenance, whether this is good enough for him- I am sure he can offer that thought. Whether I or anyone like me wants this is also irrelevant. I am writing on behalf of everyone putting out their hard earned money of any amount on something being exactly what it says it is. When I buy a loaf of bread I don’t go home hoping it’s not 50% sawdust...
so I would disagree with you that for whoever buys this ring would not need proof as you have mentioned here...contrarily, I think that anyone who is pondering purchasing this ring wants it to be 100% exactly what it says it is... and read my words closely here- I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. What I AM saying is that no matter HOW MUCH money you have - $250,000 or $165,000 is not “taking a chance on it” money. People I know with money like that to spend didn’t accumulate it spending like that. What you can assume in this piece imho is a nice real and early ring (most likely), named and dated. All anyone needs to know is that other Dietrichs exist, and yes, Otto too- on the early DLs, rings get re issued re sized and re engraved. If one is buying on the chance, then those are the guarantees thus far- so what is that worth today and on a dealers site? Still a good price, sure- maybe $10-15k? Don’t want to put it out there, but I figure if my purchasing ability is questioned... might as well just say it then right?? So if it is 100% Sepps ring- yes the price is wayyy up there. But for everyone reading it- know what you’re buying, no one really cares how much money you have or don’t. Enjoy your pieces and enjoy the hobby...

[equirhodont]

Byzanti, I´m bringing arguments, which suggest that it is Sepp´s ring. Please, tell me some arguments against.
You say - Dr. Otto - but he has ring in 1935 DAL. He could receive his ring also in 1934 or 1935 (DAL 1935 is from July 1st).
Have you something else?

I don´t understand your "rings get re issued re sized and re engraved". That means this ring get re issued re sized or re engraved? If you saw my book, you must know this ring has some differences over the rings of 1934 and younger, so it is impossible he was reissued after 1933. Re sized - Have you seen some resized ring with no traces of shorting? Reengraved? Total nonsense...
I think you'd like to find a little jerk to get the ring off. As I said - there is always something to doubt. But I need to hear arguments, not planks...

I will not talk about price, it is irrelevant. Every commodity has its buyer, and I'm not saying there's a buyer on this forum.

P.S.: It was just a joke with video and COA by Sepp. Looks like you don´t understand fun...

I am confused, you have the video... or do not? A modern COA only helps establish this as a real HR, of which I have very little doubt- it appears t be a real HR, early date, and named to a “Dietrich.” Imho COA mainly exists for me as a buyers piece of mind anymore...
do not misunderstand me, like all of us here- we want to believe! Now how much money one has is rather irrelevant also, and to be honest, we have read the very words of specifically the man who would be very interested- a Sepp Dietrich specialized collector. His own words told us he would be looking for a very strong provenance, whether this is good enough for him- I am sure he can offer that thought. Whether I or anyone like me wants this is also irrelevant. I am writing on behalf of everyone putting out their hard earned money of any amount on something being exactly what it says it is. When I buy a loaf of bread I don’t go home hoping it’s not 50% sawdust...
so I would disagree with you that for whoever buys this ring would not need proof as you have mentioned here...contrarily, I think that anyone who is pondering purchasing this ring wants it to be 100% exactly what it says it is... and read my words closely here- I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. What I AM saying is that no matter HOW MUCH money you have - $250,000 or $165,000 is not “taking a chance on it” money. People I know with money like that to spend didn’t accumulate it spending like that. What you can assume in this piece imho is a nice real and early ring (most likely), named and dated. All anyone needs to know is that other Dietrichs exist, and yes, Otto too- on the early DLs, rings get re issued re sized and re engraved. If one is buying on the chance, then those are the guarantees thus far- so what is that worth today and on a dealers site? Still a good price, sure- maybe $10-15k? Don’t want to put it out there, but I figure if my purchasing ability is questioned... might as well just say it then right?? So if it is 100% Sepps ring- yes the price is wayyy up there. But for everyone reading it- know what you’re buying, no one really cares how much money you have or don’t. Enjoy your pieces and enjoy the hobby...

[Byzanti]

I’m not the one who has to prove anything. In fact, I hope it’s sepps ring. I agree that amazing things happen in discoveries all the time in this hobby, and in others. So please- show us the indisputable or even highly probable evidence that tells us that it is indeed Sepps ring. And sorry, no, I didn’t catch the sarcasm. I have found that sarcasm never translates well in writing.

[equirhodont]

What about foto of ME, SEPP and his ring on my hand? Is it enough?
I end with the discussion. Whoever wants to believe, my arguments suffices. Those who do not want to believe will never believe...

I’m not the one who has to prove anything. In fact, I hope it’s sepps ring. I agree that amazing things happen in discoveries all the time in this hobby, and in others. So please- show us the indisputable or even highly probable evidence that tells us that it is indeed Sepps ring. And sorry, no, I didn’t catch the sarcasm. I have found that sarcasm never translates well in writing.