Private purchase rings: evidences?

[Antonio Scapini]

I think it is better to open another thread about the pp rings.
Most of us agreed the were die struck.
For example those I posted here are well known patterns.

My questions are:
1) Do we agree these were die struck?
2) How can we know they were die struck?

[Ric Ferrari]

I think it's better you provide the requested answer to my question (#169) before opening another thread with a lot of blah, blah sold as evidence.

Don't you agree ?

Come on, show us that metal don't lie

Ric

[Antonio Scapini]

C'mon, show something Ric!
Tens of post an no one single evidence, only your usual bla bla... As far as I remember you didn't recognize the fake you had in your hands until I told you that was a fake ring I made.
The only thing you're able to do is a guessing game with an off focus picture.
I already answered you.

[Ric Ferrari]

Still waiting for your answer, but I know you will not be able to….

Game over

Ric

[mick c]

private purchase rings

some Italian made dak rings where cast. I cannot show pics on this site

[Antonio Scapini]

some Italian made dak rings where cast. I cannot show pics on this site

Yes, I agree. I have me too.

But here I try to focus on german rings, since rings collectors think these are die struck.
Gaspare is a specialist on these, I asked for his help many time, but of course there are other guys well knowledgeable on these pp rings.

[Gaspare]

Antonio,,don't know what your problem with me is,,,You've never asked me anything about PP rings..You've asked me about Holocaust item but thats all I remember.

All I can tell you is a tag etc does not mean the ring is authentic. Another member from Germany and I 10 years ago or so found the hoard of the tagged rings. With them were a bag of 100s of tags and the seller was already having copies made and attaching the tags when we bought most of it.

I'll make a statement then I'll be on my own forum..

90% of all military theme rings produced during the 3rd reich were die pressed. This past weekend I went to NYCs diamond district and showed a 50 year old timer jeweler I know what was going on about the HR. He said sure there's a possibility that the HR is cast somehow.. He has seen my collection a few times. I've collected and studied them over 40 years.
- He also said that under real extreal magnification a pressed ring [I'm not talking about the HR] could show a cast signature. That those made in the flat then rounded will cause what looks like casting from being rounded a defect causing them to be believed to be cast. He said under real extreme magnification everything will appear to have defects that will lead many to assume they and other items are cast when they are not. He went on to prove it right there to me.

You and your friend are on a mission. You want more of this to be published on U-Tube .Thats ok. I see here no matter what anyone writes you just say no. A fellow here explained how you can't make a die cast ring. You went on to say 'yeah I made a ring like that already' .. Really?? You own or have access to a commercial die casting machine?? Didn't know you had that kind of money or skill, God bless you..

In the last 40 years I've interviewed enough jewelers for the project I'm doing to know my original statement is true no matter what you show - 90% of all military theme rings made during the 3rd reich were die pressed..

I also own a few authentic period ring dies and tooling for these rings, and have seen others that own dies/tooling for period rings to include the 'pirate skull and snakes ring you show!

Ric,, I applaud you for trying.. You show something and now its no good,,its got to be the way he wants it taken!
I'm not a expert but from that first photo the HR you show looks cast. IF its not ,,well it looks terrible.

I do admit,,there is something weird going on with the HR. Maybe it is some weird type of casting,,or as the other fellow says its simply investment cast but very well. I really don't know as I've never collected them.

Good luck here guys and don't let your eyes fool you.. Bend a straight piece of any metal that was formed by a press. Back and forth. Look at the bend under extreme magnification,,and you WILL see what looks like defects that will give the the appearance of being cast.

I thank you WAF for the space here and sorry for such a long post. ..,Gaspare

[Antonio Scapini]

Don't understand your post.
My question was another.

I think this ring is a good one. You know better than me for sure. I'm I right?

How can we understand if these rings ae cast or struck?
Can we understand it with pictures?

[Alexx1]

Don't understand your post.
My question was another.

I think this ring is a good one. You know better than me for sure. I'm I right?

How can we understand if these rings ae cast or struck?
Can we understand it with pictures?

I mostly collect skull rings and pp ss rings, and in my years of collecting i still have to find one of these rings that is cast and being considered as original.

I own the same type skull ring which is tagged as well and i do notice the difference between the two rings. I believe that your tagged skull ring is cast.

[Ric Ferrari]

.....in my years of collecting i still have to find one of these rings that is cast and being considered as original…....

That's also my experience

Ric

[TheGoodWitch]

I would like to see some of these close-up microscopic images of the PP rings as comparison if we can agree these are not cast.

[Byzanti]

I also collect the skulls and the ss pp rings, all originals are quite rare. Many of the skulls are known period patterns that were die struck, and then sold by jewelers- the kantinenrings...many ads for these rings exist. I do not know how many if any were cast. Generally speaking if a die struck period kantinenring has been used to make a casting mold, it’s a postwar replication. Pp ss rings were usually handmade items, evident in the construction of the ring and the setting of the runes and enamel. I think these are the most desirable of the rings next to the totenkopf ring and quite possibly more rare. I think Gaspare may be right in the 90% or better are not cast rings, but science and research will surely tell. I enjoy collecting these pieces very much, they are wonderful pieces of history!

[Antonio Scapini]

I thought me too they were all die struck.
But period publications what says?
I think we all were wrong (me first!) thinking the rings were not cast and only die struck.
Many rings are die cast, but so well made that they look (at naked eyes or with normal loops) die struck.
I will offer Gaspare what I found, but I'm not going to investigate these pp rings in deep, I only know there's an ocean of infos to be discovered.
I needed to check some to make comparisons with the TK rings.
I think everything in the upcoming future will be very interesting for all of us, for the collectors community interest.

[Ric Ferrari]

….I think this ring is a good one. You know better than me for sure. I'm I right?

How can we understand if these rings ae cast or struck?
Can we understand it with pictures?

I think you're wrong thinking PP rings were made by casting.

Since you admit to know nothing about the matter , pay attention to sell opinions like facts and read again what Gaspare said :

…….All I can say is for PP rings is that under extreme magnification they can look cast. And, the smaller the ring the worse the condition is. It also depends on the material. .
I stay with my original statement no matter what is shown here,,,90% of all 3rd reich era commercially produced for retail sales military theme rings are die pressed….....

Ric

[Byzanti]

See now this is a very slippery slope once you get to the pp rings to say “oh well these were cast too, just look at it under 100x mag” and here is why- it’s well known that period rings were used to make about a zillion postwar fakes. So I’m not about to buy in to this one easily at all...it’s gonna create fear and doubt, never mind a continual devaluation of the real pieces. Probably happening to the TKs right now. Now the truth is worth any cost, for sure- but we have members and others who own period dies. We know how they were made. We know the makers that made and sold them (I am speaking of the kantinenrings and the rare ss pp rings). We have period ads, and the period price tags reflected the cheaper, mechanical method of die stamping out a flat band, sizing and soldering it- maybe adding some upgrades like glass eyes in the skulls. They were only a few RM to reflect their popular appeal, mass production, easy and inexpensive manufacture, and create room for upgrades to the most basic thin metal (usually hollow backed) rings.