Danish obersturmführer Søren Kam's RK and nahkampfspange - how did he earn it?

[Pedersen]

Dear Peter.

Very, very interesting documents.

Kenneth.

[Ian Jewison]

I just compared the above posted documents with J.P.Moore's (excellent) CD-R serie "Führerliste der Waffen SS" including Søren Kam's award documents copied from the US National Archives microfilms.

When comparing to the above-mentioned documents I must admit I'm surprised to note there are several differences in the text line breaks, font types and signatures. Is it possible to learn the backgorund of the above-mentioned documents?

I agree there are definate discrepancies.....one of the first thing that that differs is the orginal Vorschlagliste has punch holes where this one does not...unless they have been "edited" out!

The age of the documents to me also does not look consistant with that being 60+ years old!!

However, weren't these documents done in Triplicate so signatures and punch holes could differ!?!?!!?

It is far too easy to get copies and make duplicates these days and the market is being flooded with fake s h i t e!!!

Much of it appears to be coming from Austria so I have been informed but the name of the person was not told to me....I forget the exact place but a few people are looking into this fraud case.

/Ian

[Ian Jewison]

However, weren't these documents done in Triplicate so signatures and punch holes could differ!?!?!!?

If this was the case, they used carbon paper....the type set does not correspond to the known original example!!!

There are tabulations that differ which confirm it was typed at a different time....pre 1945 or not

All the ones I have seen in the past were clearly copies/duplicates done on the same typewriter at the same time......and tended to be in worse shape than these.....

[rumohr]

If this was the case, they used carbon paper....the type set does not correspond to the known original example!!!

There are tabulations that differ which confirm it was typed at a different time....pre 1945 or not concerning

All the ones I have seen in the past were clearly copies/duplicates done on the same typewriter at the same time......and tended to be in worse shape than these.....

As a longtime collector i was amazed to read Jewisons remark concerning age-over 60 years-to "good quality".....
Ive earlier been working in the war archive of my country and seen/handled MUCH older papers and documents in Better quality.
Mr Jewison cant have seen much documents in his lifetime.......
Sincerely Rumohr

[Ian Jewison]

Thank you for your remarks Rumohr, I obviously know nothing you are correct.......please then explain why this differs to the known Vorschlag in BDC which was clearly typed on a different typewriter, in different font style and has different signatures and tabulations? Even the Reichsführer SS Personal Amt stamp differ for the same office!

Why have another typed up?

When they were written they were in triplicate and used carbon paper.......

No doubt you have seen these and handled them as you also live in Sweden..........there is a difference in seeing than just having a scan, however, as I have pointed out there are definate differences in these documents, kindly explain why then this should ?

And as I said the ones I have seen have been in poor shape as these used poor quality paper........

I have not said it is fake, however when there are discrepancies that causes you to look closer......with the way the market is today with floods of fake documents it is worth while taking a closer look and verifying before you waste your money.........

[rumohr]

[QUOTE=Ian Jewison]Thank you for your remarks Rumohr, I obviously know nothing you are correct.......please then explain why this differs to the known Vorschlag in BDC which was clearly typed on a different typewriter, in different font style and has different signatures and tabulations? Even the Reichsführer SS Personal Amt stamp differ for the same office!

Why have another typed up?

When they were written they were in triplicate and used carbon paper.......

No doubt you have seen these and handled them as you also live in Sweden..........there is a difference in seeing than just having a scan, however, as I have pointed out there are definate differences in these documents, kindly explain why then this should ?

And as I said the ones I have seen have been in poor shape as these used poor quality paper........

I have not said it is fake, however when there are discrepancies that causes you to look closer......with the way the market is today with floods of fake documents it is worth while taking a closer look and verifying before you waste your money.........[/QUOTE


First i want to make one thing clear,I never said that Mr,Jewison "know nothing......"
Now to make a end of a discussion that may never end if not wise men will be allowed to "speak".......
I quote"In the Personalakten can often be found as many as 3 or 4 signed copies of a Ritterkreuz or DKiG Vorschlag.
It could be expected that sometimes these other Vorschlag copies could be found in the files of other military departments.
......I can say this about the Ritterkreuzvorschlag-On the first page the angle of the eingang stamp in the upper right hand corner is at a slightly different angle on your copy and the Personalakte copy in the microfilm.Also the signature of Gille on the 14.11.44 endorsement is slightly different.The G on my copy is much larger than the G on your copy.However,I checked some examples of Gille signatures in the file of Hans Dorr and there is similar variation. John Moore

Quote-(assume you read German)...solch ein Vorschlag wurde mitunter mehere male angefertigt,abgeschreiben,nochmals uberarbeitet,von eine weitere stelle abgeschreiben,wieder an die erste stelle zuruckgesandt.....und dabei kam es vor,dass mehere vorschläge existieren.In enem fall habe Ich kenntnis von drei verschiedene vorschlägen(!!!) fur eine verleihung!!!
I.R. (nestor in german SS doc.).

Truly Yours Rumohr

[Ian Jewison]

Thanks for the reply Rumohr......we, as you know will have different opinions on this for the time being....

Regards, Ian

[Carl Ellingstad]

What a shame.....

What a shame that this thread ended up like this

[rumohr]

What a shame that the very same documents didnt sell in Copenhagen several months ago

And...........?
Rumohr

[rumohr]

And...........?
Rumohr

Yes,
and im also responsible as i let my feeling take overhand too much.
I also appologise for not quoting Mr John P.Moores
full letter to me, and to Mr.Ellingstad for hard language in my phonecall to him yesterday.

Rumohr(Erik Rundkvist).

[Carl Ellingstad]

No hard feelings

[John P. Moore]

Earlier this week I had asked several of you if you had saved copies of the forged documents relating to the Ritterkreuz Vorschlag of Sören Kam that had been deleted here by the original poster. I have since found the examples that I had saved in an obscure directory on my PC and posted them here on a topic that I started on Feldgrau regarding SS document forgeries.

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewto...p?f=42&t=29538

The Sörem Kam forgeries go along with some other interesting examples of SS document forgeries that have been received in recent weeks.

John

[N.C. Wyeth]

The Sörem Kam forgeries go along with some other interesting examples of SS document forgeries that have been received in recent weeks.

John

Isn't that quite sad? Nobody knows what to believe in collecting TR militaria nowadays, do they?

Brad