Waffen SS shoulder board waffenfarbe branch affiliation question

[w4uvv]

I recently traded dearly for a matching pair of original period Waffen SS Oberstrumfurher should boards. The underlay color on top of the black SS base color is "light grey". The validity of the underlay color and the validity of the shoulder boards are not an issue.

My ONLY question is what Waffen SS branch affiliation is the underlay color "light grey" ?

All my Waffenfarbe color reference charts for Heer/Waffen SS id "light grey" affiliates as "Generals". However, some Waffen SS colors also are the same as Heer branch color affiliations. The Heer color for "light grey" is affiliated for the "Propaganda Personnel" branch. For "Transport & Supply Personnel" Heer branch color affiliation is "light blue".


The id provided me by an long time old collector friend was "Waffen SS Transport", which he said was one of the harder branch affiliations to collect. That would be appropriate and correct if "Generals" is defined broadly to include other branch affiliations not specifically shown in the color Waffenfarbe charts. If anyone has a confirmed branch affiliation and can cite a valid reference or documented source, i.e., a website, forum thread, book, and not just a speculation, for the Waffen SS shoulder boards color "light grey" underlay id I would appreciate it. Thanks.

John

[rbno]

Welcome to the forum, John!

Most shoulder boards presented as having light gray waffenfarbe are actually light blue that has faded to gray over time and with exposure to light. Your friend and collector assumed this to be the case. You must look at the unexposed piping that is protected between the dull silver cords and the black wool base. This is best done with a stand magnifier and strong light, GENTLY pull the layers of the board apart enough to get a glimpse inside. If the unexposed piping is light blue, you have a transport and supply board.

If it is dark gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff near the end of the war. If it is light gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff (mid 1942) or someone in the SS main offices (1940). If it's really gray, either light or dark, congratulations, you have a rare board!

The only really good color chart is in Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS", pages 232 to 239. No actual colors, but a complete (?) listing.

Hope this helps.

Alen

[w4uvv]

Waffen SS shoulder boards branch affiliation id

Welcome to the forum, John!

Most shoulder boards presented as having light gray waffenfarbe are actually light blue that has faded to gray over time and with exposure to light. Your friend and collector assumed this to be the case. You must look at the unexposed piping that is protected between the dull silver cords and the black wool base. This is best done with a stand magnifier and strong light, GENTLY pull the layers of the board apart enough to get a glimpse inside. If the unexposed piping is light blue, you have a transport and supply board.

If it is dark gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff near the end of the war. If it is light gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff (mid 1942) or someone in the SS main offices (1940). If it's really gray, either light or dark, congratulations, you have a rare board!

The only really good color chart is in Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS", pages 232 to 239. No actual colors, but a complete (?) listing.

Hope this helps.

Alen

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Alen,

WOW! What a great surprise! I definitely was not expecting that id! I just did the examination on both shoulder boards, which are pair matched and originally cut neatly from the uniform tunic. Both shoulder boards are consistent with normal wear and tear of the period and oxidation of the material and single pip gold color of the period.

Per your instructions, the results were BOTH SHOULDER BOARDS UNDERLAY COLORS DEFINITELY ARE 100% "LIGHT GREY" FOR BOTH THE TOP AND BOTTOM PORTIONS WHICH I COULD SAFELY PRY OPEN ,AS APPROPRIATE, IN SUNLIGHT TO CONFIRM OR NOT.

My collector friend acquired most of his fantastic German collection when living in California from 1985-1995 before seller prices subsequently became outrageously high. I also have some nice items, fortunately, a few of which he wanted. Hence the trade which I otherwise would not have done if the shoulder boards had not been SS as I normally don't collect any shoulder boards. Actually, the trade included another SS pair matched period shoulder boards for "SS Artillery" which also were in very good condition.

I am sure when he purchased these SS shoulder boards 25+ years ago from another collector, "SS Transport" was the id provided him by the seller which he accepted as "gospel" and never questioned.

He knows from past buying/selling experiences with me that I always accept any item's id provided me as "tentative" and I am very "big" on item research and any pertinent related documentation. I previously have spent many hours on the internet using various sources attempting to either confirm or not an initial id provided. I think this particular situation is a testament again that my method has worked well for me.

I have been a member of WAF for some years but rarely post unless I feel it is worthy enough to request help from those collectors more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

Now to be fair, I must tell my collector friend the confirmed id. He definitely will be beyond unhappy, shocked and surprised. But when I couldn't find them on the Waffenfarbe chart I asked him at least 5 times on separate occasions if he was sure the shoulder board pair were "SS Transport/SS Transportation" which he affirmed and repeated "they were very rare". He definitely got that part right. We both looked in my "SS Regalia" book hoping to find any reference/picture of a "light grey" underlay color and were unsuccessful. Hence my post on WAF for help.

He may now decide to become my ex-collector friend. Hopefully not.

I think the Angolia books are out of print and no longer available. I'll do some checking. I definitely need that publication for provenance reference if for nothing else.

Alen, many thanks for your time and information on these Waffen SS shoulder boards. Your reply and comments definitely were a tremendous help.

Regards,

John

[w4uvv]

Waffen SS or Allegmeine SS ?

Welcome to the forum, John!

Most shoulder boards presented as having light gray waffenfarbe are actually light blue that has faded to gray over time and with exposure to light. Your friend and collector assumed this to be the case. You must look at the unexposed piping that is protected between the dull silver cords and the black wool base. This is best done with a stand magnifier and strong light, GENTLY pull the layers of the board apart enough to get a glimpse inside. If the unexposed piping is light blue, you have a transport and supply board.

If it is dark gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff near the end of the war. If it is light gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff (mid 1942) or someone in the SS main offices (1940). If it's really gray, either light or dark, congratulations, you have a rare board!

The only really good color chart is in Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS", pages 232 to 239. No actual colors, but a complete (?) listing.

Hope this helps.

Alen

--------------------

Alen,

If the wearer of these shoulder boards either was a member of Himmler's staff(1942) or working in the SS main offices(1940), should not the SS shoulder boards more appropriately be identified as "Allegemeine SS" vice "Waffen SS"? I think they should be "Allegemeine SS".

John

[w4uvv]

Welcome to the forum, John!

Most shoulder boards presented as having light gray waffenfarbe are actually light blue that has faded to gray over time and with exposure to light. Your friend and collector assumed this to be the case. You must look at the unexposed piping that is protected between the dull silver cords and the black wool base. This is best done with a stand magnifier and strong light, GENTLY pull the layers of the board apart enough to get a glimpse inside. If the unexposed piping is light blue, you have a transport and supply board.

If it is dark gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff near the end of the war. If it is light gray, it is for a member of Himmler's personal staff (mid 1942) or someone in the SS main offices (1940). If it's really gray, either light or dark, congratulations, you have a rare board!

The only really good color chart is in Angolia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS", pages 232 to 239. No actual colors, but a complete (?) listing.

Hope this helps.

Alen

--------------------
Alen,)


The Angolia book is available an as expected somewhat pricey. You did not state what edition you had. There is the basic edition and a 2nd edition revision, the latter of which I probably will buy.

Are my Allegemeine SS shoulder boards id of either being a member of Himmler's personal staff or SS member working in the main SS offices documented also in the 2nd edition revised?. I think it would be since a Waffenfarbe color chart should be common to all editions. Please confirm if possible. Tnx.

John)

[istra63]

John can you post some photos of your boards?

[rbno]

I believe the only difference between the first and second editions is that the second edition has a 22 page addendum of additional information, clarifications, etc. plus a few minor changes to the final page layouts. And of course, the cover. So the content of the first 475 pages are the same, including the color "charts". The charts are actually a table. There are no examples of the various waffenfarbe shown in color.

Istra63 is correct to request pictures.

Alen

[Johnny R]

Really need to see pictures of the boards to figure out what they are.

[w4uvv]

I believe the only difference between the first and second editions is that the second edition has a 22 page addendum of additional information, clarifications, etc. plus a few minor changes to the final page layouts. And of course, the cover. So the content of the first 475 pages are the same, including the color "charts". The charts are actually a table. There are no examples of the various waffenfarbe shown in color.

Istra63 is correct to request pictures.

Alen

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Thanks. I will order it today.

John

[w4uvv]

Sorry, I don't have the membership level to post pictures.

John can you post some photos of your boards?

------------------

Istra63:


I take pictures of every item in my collection, which is SOP with me. But as an occasional poster to WAF I do not have the membership level to post pictures.

However, if you send me a PM with your "regular" ISP email address I will send jpg copies to you. The pictures show top side by side and bottom views of both boards; full left and right boards top view separately; closer side views and both ends separately.

John

[w4uvv]

--------------------

Alen,)


The Angolia book is available an as expected somewhat pricey. You did not state what edition you had. There is the basic edition and a 2nd edition revision, the latter of which I probably will buy.

Are my Allegemeine SS shoulder boards id of either being a member of Himmler's personal staff or SS member working in the main SS offices documented also in the 2nd edition revised?. I think it would be since a Waffenfarbe color chart should be common to all editions. Please confirm if possible. Tnx.

John)

-----------------

Alen,

I received the Angolia "Cloth Insignia of the SS"" 2nd Revision book yesterday. The Waffenfarbe color chart list also is from pages 232-239. Under "Mid-1940" for "light grey" is the notation also "Auf Planstellen des Reiches...etc. I used the Google translator and I agree with the info you previously provided me. Possibly either he was assigned to the SS Reich main offices in Berlin in 1940. Subsequently, possibly from 1941 to mid-1942 (June) this Oberstrumfurhrer was assigned to the staff of SS-Reichsfurhrer Himmler in Berlin. He may have spent all three years in Berlin.

Thanks again for taking the time and effort to respond and help.

I took a significant number of pictures of both boards. If you send me a PM with your ISP email address I will send them to you as email attachments.

John