Cast in the Round?

[GiuseppeC]

There are some collectors who adhere to the idea that the SS Honor Ring was “cast in the round”…

If I'm not mistaken, this idea was first put-out by Craig Gottlieb...so you can give it a value based on that.

Of course, people are free to believe whatever they want to believe…but getting me to believe it is a whole other story. As you go through this post, you’ll see why I don’t believe it, and won’t believe it.

It is my hope that some of you will learn something new, which will not only improve your understanding of militaria, but also keep you from buying bad items.

For those who don’t know, I used to grade/authenticate rare coins for a third party grading service. I have spent many hours studying metal objects under a microscope, including militaria. Today, I’m exclusively a tinnie collector, but I still have my old collection of other items, which includes a mint, untouched 1936 SS Honor Ring.

It is commonly accepted knowledge that tinnies are struck pieces. It’s readily-provable through their die-flaws, which I’ll soon show you on several examples. The use of dies in manufacturing, was not a new invention at the time of the Third Reich’s rise to power. It was already well in use all over the world, and is still in use today, for manufacturing things like Coins, Medals, fine parts, etc.

Anything that requires a lot of detail, good quality, and high-volume production is worth the cost and effort of die-striking from a “practical business” standpoint.

The pictures are reduced here, but you can view full-sized by clicking on each one.

First, a 2-tone silver Las Vegas $10 Casino Chip: (US, Modern-made)


Next, a US Civil War Veteran’s Medal (from NJ): (US made, late 19th Century)


An 1893 Columbian Exposition Coin: (US Made, XF condition, 1893)


An Italian-made “Me Ne Frego” pin: (Italy, ca. 1944-45)


The next series of pictures, are all from various tinnies, and posted to familiarize the reader with a few examples of what dies will do to metal, and the forensic traces they leave behind:



(I did a write-up on this next one, a while back: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=845127 )
















Finally, we come back to the Honor Ring…the close-up of the Swastika in the picture below, is taken from this ring:

http://forum.militaria-sammlergemein...-Schutzstaffel

There are 4 die characteristics marked-off in this 1 picture, but there are plenty more that I didn’t mark off…(and I can always take more pictures of other parts of the ring).



Casting in any form will not capture sharp detail to this degree…it’s really just that simple.

Casting does not create anywhere-near the same level of "pressure to facilitate metal-flow" that striking does.

As a production process, casting is great for small volume, but it doesn’t scale well for the production of thousands of similar/identical pieces when sharp detail is required, such as we see across orders, medals, badges, and 20,000+ tinnies...

It is well-known, and well-accepted that dies were used to make most of the metal items we see. Through this thread, you have seen:

- Other items from the same period, same Nation.
- An item from another nation, but same period.
- Other items from an earlier period, different nation.
- A modern item.

All of these items were made, using the same process. The Honor Ring was also made using this process, or else I'm the proud owner of the best fake ring ever made....

[tanker]

Very well wriiten (and professional) analysis!

[GiuseppeC]

Very well wriiten (and professional) analysis!

Thanks Ron!

[sgstandard]

Dies

Well done!!
My jawless SS totenkopf badge has similar such flaws, as do tinnies made by the same die.
The only thing I disagree with is the comment that lost-wax casting can't create very fine detail, though I offer a caveat..........
If you're only making ONE ring with lost wax, and you cast the ring DIRECTLY from the original sculpture, the detail can be quite fine. However......duplicating more than one ring requires making a mold from the original wax sculpture, so duplicate waxes can be made.......THIS is where most of the detail is lost.

NOTE: People get confused by the terminology. "Lost-Wax casting" or "casting" requires a wax model that is burnt away by hear, and MELTED silver is forced into the cavity that is left.
"Die-Castinjg" is when you take a flat, blank silver bar.......and a huge press "stamps" it out with high pressure, like making a coin.
The next time that someone tells you that TK Rings were lost-wax cast, ask them why they don't make coins that way.
The only thing I'm not sure of, is whether the inside inscription was done flat, or "in-the-round".

[rbminis]

Well done!!
My jawless SS totenkopf badge has similar such flaws, as do tinnies made by the same die.
The only thing I disagree with is the comment that lost-wax casting can't create very fine detail, though I offer a caveat..........
If you're only making ONE ring with lost wax, and you cast the ring DIRECTLY from the original sculpture, the detail can be quite fine. However......duplicating more than one ring requires making a mold from the original wax sculpture, so duplicate waxes can be made.......THIS is where most of the detail is lost.

NOTE: People get confused by the terminology. "Lost-Wax casting" or "casting" requires a wax model that is burnt away by hear, and MELTED silver is forced into the cavity that is left.
"Die-Castinjg" is when you take a flat, blank silver bar.......and a huge press "stamps" it out with high pressure, like making a coin.
The next time that someone tells you that TK Rings were lost-wax cast, ask them why they don't make coins that way.
The only thing I'm not sure of, is whether the inside inscription was done flat, or "in-the-round".

Sorry, "Die Casting" is injection molded as in Die Cast car models.
"Die Stamping" is more likely the term you are referring to.
Ralph.

[Bob Hritz]

In my opinion, SS Honor Rings are such a poor quality item, I must believe a low skilled die maker cut the dies to make the rings. That many flaws, in a small item, demonstrate a carelessness of execution of the dies. From the poor quality, I always believed these were die cast, under low or no pressure. I once believed they were made in the lost wax process, but there are so many that the die casting method would be more cost efficient.

One of our member's father made a few honor rings. They were made in a home made casting system and were far superior, in my opinion, to any made during the TR era.

Bob Hritz

[Byzanti]

Very interesting and detailed piece, Giuseppe! I've never given much weight to the lost wax or any other casting method largely due to the notion of time and expense- now- it's a different story- then- it was more efficient I think in many ways- cost,
Production, time.... I think maybe the blanks were cast (as blanks)- then die struck or run through a rolling block (still striking) then hand finished. That's the only way I can see at this point any attributes of both casting and striking remaining present. That's just my observation after reading what I consider to be honest arguments on either side, but until the actual process artifacts are discovered- we are taking best guesses. This being said - your expertise in coins makes a solid argument. Likewise whenever Bob Hritz posts an opinion- I read it, every time. I'm pretty skeptical of casting being touted too highly, depending on the source. No one wants to see more fakes or cast copies of anything in this hobby...

[james m]

Quote:
"Sorry, "Die Casting" is injection molded as in Die Cast car models.
"Die Stamping" is more likely the term you are referring to."

I spent part of my professional career working for a metals company and I for one concur that die stamping is likely the correct term and the method most probably used to make TK rings. This is the opinion of just about everyone in the hobby that I know of today. If and when the original Gahr dies turn up we'll know for sure.
If anyone reading this doubts that die stamping will produce a replicable product with the same consistent flaws I suggest you go over to the German Daggers forum where Hapur, a notable reproduction TK ring maker, produced a thread detailing the process.
And Thank You GiuseppeC for the excellent analysis.
Jim

[Bob Hritz]

Actually, I misspoke when I used the term die casting. The word I wanted to use was die forging. This is where the blank is heated to a semi plastic state and pressed into the die. It is better for thicker objects, like the Honor Ring.

Bob Hritz

[Byzanti]

Quote:
"Sorry, "Die Casting" is injection molded as in Die Cast car models.
"Die Stamping" is more likely the term you are referring to."

I spent part of my professional career working for a metals company and I for one concur that die stamping is likely the correct term and the method most probably used to make TK rings. This is the opinion of just about everyone in the hobby that I know of today. If and when the original Gahr dies turn up we'll know for sure.
If anyone reading this doubts that die stamping will produce a replicable product with the same consistent flaws I suggest you go over to the German Daggers forum where Hapur, a notable reproduction TK ring maker, produced a thread detailing the process.
And Thank You GiuseppeC for the excellent analysis.
Jim

In fact, Jim- this very morning another noted longtime member and contributor, Evgeniy, just posted a VERY convincing, new example of a reproduced 1930s era ring compared against the original from his own collection. For anyone interested in these pieces- I would highly suggest a visit and a look.

[Antonio Scapini]

These "big" flaws can be copied with a high pressure casting process or another process.
This is IMO not the way to understand if a ring is cast or die struck.
Furthermore same pattern ('30 style) shows different features in the same area.

I could show you rings with air bubbles in the metal...

You should compare tens of rings before reach a conclusion.

Just my two cents.

[sgstandard]

Rings

I could not disagree more with Mr. Hritz that SS Totenkopfrings are poor quality.
I had the "Geldern" ring in my possession (It's featured in Boyle's 1st book).
Everyone looks at the die-flaws, etc........but the photos are large.
The detail on that mint ring is spectacular, and it couldn't possibly be made any better.

[tanker]

Sure, if you only look at copies.

In my opinion, SS Honor Rings are such a poor quality item, I must believe a low skilled die maker cut the dies to make the rings. That many flaws, in a small item, demonstrate a carelessness of execution of the dies. From the poor quality, I always believed these were die cast, under low or no pressure. I once believed they were made in the lost wax process, but there are so many that the die casting method would be more cost efficient.

One of our member's father made a few honor rings. They were made in a home made casting system and were far superior, in my opinion, to any made during the TR era.

Bob Hritz

[I Claudius]

Well.... I can only add about how munich custom jewellery is made now.
The city is a second home for me and I have several very nice and very intricate and detailed silver rings from munich artisans. These are people who have learned their trade from older munich jewelers as they did before them.
Each of these was made before me as I watched. They don't take long but the process was the same each time.
A silver block is placed above a flat die. A press then forces the silver into the flat die. They then heat and shape the ring then bend to size. The join is then soldered. Then they add the finishing polish highlights.
I see no reason why tk rings were made any differently. Garr was a jeweler. So are these guys.
Just my personal opinion chaps

[tanker]

Hello
Did they do any engraving on the inside before or after joining? Thanks