17th GvB Waffen SS PanzerGrenadiers-Questions

[Ostprussenmann]

First, I am new to this forum, but I was directed here to get some questions answered because I am doing some research on the 17th SS GVB Division because it fought against my great uncle's unit during WW2. I recently acquired an entire foot locker worth of stuff my his daughter while she was cleaning his up getting ready to sell. Have a few badges, cuff title for GvB, some medals, etc.-Just trying to organize it all.

I have looked over the numerous forum postings on this site regarding PZGrenadiers and still have some questions. Some answers may just require a simple yes or no, other may not. Finally, thanks for your time.

1) Did Waffen SS Late War Grenadiers (particularly Waffen SS PzG. Div Nr. 17 (GVB) wear White or Green Shoulder Boards? - One forum posting I saw stated White (Infantry), which is what I presume would make sense since only the Heer wore the special green color.

2) If a Soldier was attached to the above division (late war), but in the Armored Recce Battalion, would they still wear white or the dark yellow (since the copper brown stopped being used as of 1941)?

3) What Assault Badge would a Pz.G. member earn if a member of the above division during the late war? If Recce- would it be the IAB-Bronze, PAB-Bronze, or GAB? If the Soldier was a PzG and not Recce, could he have earned just the GAB or PAB-Bronze? I saw a posting on the forums here and I am still confused. The internet seems to be confusing also. From what information that I have it could any of the three. I know the 17th SS was refitted numerous times towards 1944-1945.

4) I also have a Obershutze Pip (Black Circle with silver diamond) that is lose. I am interested in how that ended up in the box. The rank is pretty much a US Private First Class equivalent, and I thought towards the end of the war, that rank was done away with?

Thanks everyone who took the time to respond and read this. Still kind of a rookie with TRM. I mainly collect IGM.

[ironcross13]

First, I am new to this forum, but I was directed here to get some questions answered because I am doing some research on the 17th SS GVB Division because it fought against my great uncle's unit during WW2. I recently acquired an entire foot locker worth of stuff my his daughter while she was cleaning his up getting ready to sell. Have a few badges, cuff title for GvB, some medals, etc.-Just trying to organize it all.

I have looked over the numerous forum postings on this site regarding PZGrenadiers and still have some questions. Some answers may just require a simple yes or no, other may not. Finally, thanks for your time.

1) Did Waffen SS Late War Grenadiers (particularly Waffen SS PzG. Div Nr. 17 (GVB) wear White or Green Shoulder Boards? - One forum posting I saw stated White (Infantry), which is what I presume would make sense since only the Heer wore the special green color.

2) If a Soldier was attached to the above division (late war), but in the Armored Recce Battalion, would they still wear white or the dark yellow (since the copper brown stopped being used as of 1941)?

3) What Assault Badge would a Pz.G. member earn if a member of the above division during the late war? If Recce- would it be the IAB-Bronze, PAB-Bronze, or GAB? If the Soldier was a PzG and not Recce, could he have earned just the GAB or PAB-Bronze? I saw a posting on the forums here and I am still confused. The internet seems to be confusing also. From what information that I have it could any of the three. I know the 17th SS was refitted numerous times towards 1944-1945.

4) I also have a Obershutze Pip (Black Circle with silver diamond) that is lose. I am interested in how that ended up in the box. The rank is pretty much a US Private First Class equivalent, and I thought towards the end of the war, that rank was done away with?

Thanks everyone who took the time to respond and read this. Still kind of a rookie with TRM. I mainly collect IGM.

Maybe post a pic of what you got people could tell you more on the items themselves.

[NickG]

OK I will bite!
Answers:
(1) white for Waffen SS infantry, motorized or not)
(they did not adapt the green army panzer grenadiere farbe!)

(2) Aufklarung (recon) at the time GVB was formed = golden yellow
(the older cinnamon/copper brown color predates this Division)

(3) Infantry, armored or not, would receive the infantry assault badge (IAB).
The PAB is for armored warfare and the GAB is for anybody who did not qualify for IAB or PAB, so assault gunners, engineers, Pz Abwehr etc...

In my opinion a mech.inf. regimental or battalion level recon platoon in an Infantry role acting as scouts -(eyes and ears) at the tip of the spear, would be eligible for the IAB.
They are still infantry and mechanized infantry is infantry deployed with armored personnel carriers, still fulfilling the infantry roll, they dismount and attack...earning IAB's
(no PAB or GAB).

[Ostprussenmann]

OK I will bite!
Answers:
(1) white for Waffen SS infantry, motorized or not)
(they did not adapt the green army panzer grenadiere farbe!)

(2) Aufklarung (recon) at the time GVB was formed = golden yellow
(the older cinnamon/copper brown color predates this Division)

(3) Infantry, armored or not, would receive the infantry assault badge (IAB).
The PAB is for armored warfare and the GAB is for anybody who did not qualify for IAB or PAB, so assault gunners, engineers, Pz Abwehr etc...

In my opinion a mech.inf. regimental or battalion level recon platoon in an Infantry role acting as scouts -(eyes and ears) at the tip of the spear, would be eligible for the IAB.
They are still infantry and mechanized infantry is infantry deployed with armored personnel carriers, still fulfilling the infantry roll, they dismount and attack...earning IAB's
(no PAB or GAB).

First off, thank you for taking the time to reply to my topic. Second, I have some follow on questions.

PAB-BRONZE-I am still confused because i found this...The Wehrmacht Tank Battle badge was introduced on December 20, 1939, in order to recognize the achievements of Panzer personnel who took part in armored assaults. It was designed by Ernst Peekhaus of Berlin, and was instituted by order of Generaloberst von Brauchitsh. On June 6th, 1940, a separate class of the badge, in Bronze, was added in order to recognize the crews of armored vehicles other than tanks (half tracks, assault guns, etc).

As mentioned above, the Silver class was presented to tank commanders, gunners or radio operators while the bronze class was presented to the Panzer-Grenadier regiments, tank assault crew, armored recon units, and medical personnel who went into battle in armored vehicles.

IAB-BRONZE- A separate class, in Bronze, was instituted on June 1, 1940. The Bronzed class had criteria similar to the requirements the Silver. There was, however, one notable distinction; The status of the troops, bronzed meant motorized Panzer troops, silver meant foot infantry.

BRONZE AWARD:

To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry assaults.
To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry counter-attacks.
To have taken part in three or more motorized armed reconnaissance operations.
To have been engaged in hand to hand combat in motorized assault positions.
To have participated on three separate days, in the restitution of a motorized combat position.
The attacks had to take place on different days, in the event that they took place on one day only one "credit" was earned.

So I guess the question is: "Since I am inquiring about the 17th SS PzGren. Division from 1944-1945 (late war), what would the Armored Recce Earn and what would the Actualy Panzer Grenadiers Earn?

[NickG]

yeah its kind of murky for me now what motorized infantry (mechanized) were entitled to...
This German reference states the following: (on the Algemeines Sturmabzeichen)
Bereits während des Polenfeldzugs im September 1939 erkannte das Oberkommando des Heeres, dass es zwingend notwendig war, dem bisherigen Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen ein weiteres Sturmabzeichen hinzuzufügen. Während das Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen nur für unmotorisierte Schützen und Gebirgsjäger in Frage kam, sollten mit dem (allgemeinen) Sturmabzeichen alle anderen Waffengattungen, (beispielsweise Sturmartillerie oder Pioniere) sofern sie mit der Infanterie und Panzerkräften gemeinsam im Kampf standen, gewürdigt werden.
That's kind of what wrote....(yellow) but you are right about the different colors (grades) depended on the "status' of the troops
Maybe you should repost this in the Heer/SS badges section!

[Ostprussenmann]

Maybe your right!!!

Nick G, Thanks again. I will try it there.