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    #16
    Hello codytrcollector,
    I would be very interested in seeing the regulation/document to which you refer. Everything I have on file indicates that the skull with the letter "k" underneath was authorized for commissioned officers only.
    Derek

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      #17
      ?

      Originally posted by derek View Post
      Hello codytrcollector,
      I would be very interested in seeing the regulation/document to which you refer. Everything I have on file indicates that the skull with the letter "k" underneath was authorized for commissioned officers only.
      Derek
      See Angolia "Cloth Insignia SS" Page 194.

      Comment

        #18
        Thank you PMan but I'm afraid Angolia cites neither documentation or regulations and the SS-TV section contains many errors.
        I prefer to rely on original period orders to unreferenced secondary texts and that was why I was hoping to see codytrcollector's document.
        For example, on page 194: the skull and upper case "K" did not replace the collar tab with just a "K" in July 1937.
        Both badges were introduced together in 1936, the skull and "K" for SS Leaders up to the rank of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer, and the "K" for men and non-commissioned members of staff. (IA/ O TGB.Nr. 01462/36 Berlin, March 9, 1936).
        A Himmler order from 1937 confirms this use of the badges and both were still in use in 1939 according to documents from Eicke.
        Certainly photos do exist of NCOs wearing the skull with a "K" but this would have been a non-regulation practice and may well have been a war-time practice.
        Derek

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          #19
          What a killer tab

          Comment

            #20
            Hi Derek,
            You may be indeed correct. Not only haven't I had time to find said regulation and spoke before reviewing it, but I just started learning German a few years ago so I might of misinterpreted the material in the first place....if so, my sincere apologies to this forum. I can certainly see how that could happen if what you say is correct.
            While thinking it over, I also might be remembering statements from the Angolia book--which as you point out is filled with mistakes/non-referenced material--and through time somehow added them to what I recall from period documents in my mind. The SS was quite the complexed organization in its time and trying to understand it 70 plus years later is no easy task for myself. Anyhow, I don't recall reading either in at least the last year so it's possible I made a mistake. My main point however was both EM/NCO and Officers used the twisted cord around the collar tabs at the time and other than a soldier that was breaking regulations, such a tab wouldn't be worn in 1945.
            If you have a chance, would you please post the document you spoke of. Admittedly, I haven't started looking just yet but I will not forget to do so.

            Comment

              #21
              Mollo's uniforms of the SS volume 4 shows a photo of a Hauptscharführer with the 'k' skull tab (p. 24) the same photo as in Angolias cloth book. Later in the volume he states the tab was for wear by officers and nco's on the camp commandants staff.

              There was also a photo for sale one stand last year showing an nco wearing the K tab. Unfortunately I do not have the photo.

              I have no regulation to share but I assumed this was correct. I'm interested to learn more!
              Last edited by chrischa; 01-29-2016, 01:23 AM.

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                #22
                Skull K

                Originally posted by derek View Post
                Thank you PMan but I'm afraid Angolia cites neither documentation or regulations and the SS-TV section contains many errors.
                I prefer to rely on original period orders to unreferenced secondary texts and that was why I was hoping to see codytrcollector's document.
                For example, on page 194: the skull and upper case "K" did not replace the collar tab with just a "K" in July 1937.
                Both badges were introduced together in 1936, the skull and "K" for SS Leaders up to the rank of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer, and the "K" for men and non-commissioned members of staff. (IA/ O TGB.Nr. 01462/36 Berlin, March 9, 1936).
                A Himmler order from 1937 confirms this use of the badges and both were still in use in 1939 according to documents from Eicke.
                Certainly photos do exist of NCOs wearing the skull with a "K" but this would have been a non-regulation practice and may well have been a war-time practice.
                Derek
                The Skull K collar tab was available in both bullion and thread embroidery. An original thread example was posted in the past. Based on that, I am not so sure about the interpretation of (IA/0 TGB.Nr.01462/36 Berlin,March 9. 1936).

                Comment

                  #23
                  Very nice rare tab.
                  I know one of those in the EU in top superb condition and embroidery.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Originally posted by codytrcollector View Post
                    // I've gathered that you're under the impression if a tab has litzen (cord) it means it would only be worn by officer. I assume you believe this because the scull is bullion...but NCO tabs also had bullion sculls with black and silver/aluminum litzen. //
                    Respecfully, the only "NCO" tab would be a rank tab. The same silver/black piped TK tabs were worn by all Mannschaften ranks, SS-Schütze (private) to SS-Sturmscharführer (Company Sgt-Major). Do a search of Totenkopf photos, and you find bullion, machine-embroidered, etc. worn by all non-comissioned ranks. Vertical, left facing, right facing, with or without silver/black piping. SS collecting, like all other areas of collecting, seems to think NCOs wore special whatever when typically, it is just rank designation that is different.

                    Tim, wonderful bullion hand embrodiered K tab for staff of the camp Kommandant.

                    As to Bob Hritz running after you and saving you, I would expect no less

                    Comment

                      #25
                      No link, please delete.
                      Last edited by derek; 01-29-2016, 12:19 PM.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Codytrcollector.
                        As you requested here is a copy of one of the documents I mentioned. It is from the insignia regulations issued and signed by Himmler in June 1937 and clearly delineates these Kommandantur collar patches. You will see that the capital gothic letter "K" is mistaken for lower case in some English texts.
                        At the start of the document it states that the embroidery for all insignia was to be in aluminium.
                        I hope you find it interesting.
                        Derek


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                          #27
                          Very interesting, Derek, thanks!

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Michael73 View Post
                            Very interesting, Derek, thanks!
                            Great.

                            You've cleared that up I think Derek.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              An interesting case of the order not being followed. There are enough photos of NCOs wearing this collar tab as well as knowing this was also produced in thread embroidery for lower ranks.

                              Bob zHritz
                              In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

                              Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Tony & Kaiser View Post
                                Respecfully, the only "NCO" tab would be a rank tab. The same silver/black piped TK tabs were worn by all Mannschaften ranks, SS-Schütze (private) to SS-Sturmscharführer (Company Sgt-Major). Do a search of Totenkopf photos, and you find bullion, machine-embroidered, etc. worn by all non-comissioned ranks. Vertical, left facing, right facing, with or without silver/black piping. SS collecting, like all other areas of collecting, seems to think NCOs wore special whatever when typically, it is just rank designation that is different.

                                Tim, wonderful bullion hand embrodiered K tab for staff of the camp Kommandant.

                                As to Bob Hritz running after you and saving you, I would expect no less
                                Not sure where you came up with that but I don't think NCO's were "special" in anyway and never said anything of the kind....albeit there were regulations specifically for NCO's. I obviously know that and I'm sure everyone else does as well. At this time, however, we're discussing non-commission officers and commission officers, not enlisted men. Also, your statement isn't entirely accurate as there was non-bullion, thread examples available too. But yes, bullion tabs were worn by all members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände at times in accordance to period documentation. In fact, early on enlisted men also wore bullion raute--which is a lesser known fact. So I don't think anyone thought I was saying only NCO's wore the bullion scull and black and silver/aluminum twist cord but if they did, I apologize.
                                Still looking for the referenced regulation. Ignorantly, I have over 30,000 documents, period photographs and collections saved all together in one folder. Derek, thank you....not sure if it definitely "clears this up" as there's more to be said, but we're on the way. It's nice to find someone else outside of WRF, besides Wim, that has an interest in period regulations like myself.

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