M44 Recon Tunic - opinions please

[WWIIBuff]

Hi Guys,

What are your opinions on this piece on a dealers site?

http://ww-2militaria.com/b/new/uc/uc0094/pops.htm

Thanks
John

[John Pic]

Hello JohnK, Im afraid almost to say what I think but I will.While all the insignias and material appear real I cant see how such a tunic survived through combat and thousands of I love Lucy reruns and looks scarcely worn.Thats one of my silly ways of feeling out a piece I try to imagine it sitting in someones closet/trunk/barn since 1945. Im finding it difficult although I realize its possible.

[WWIIBuff]

M44 SS Tunic

Thanks for the feedback John. I was fairly sure everything was good on the piece but I also wanted other opinions. It is missing the button tab under the collar, but I have seen other M44’s without it as well.

With respect to the overall condition, that will always be a concern. But I think it is more likely on such a late war piece than on the earlier tunics. As long as the item is textbook, I feel much better about that. In fact I had the same reaction to a certain minty SS tunic that was sold at the Pomona show last year – I think you know the piece.

Also this dealer has been know to get a lot of items out of Russia where many items were put in storage right after the war.

Thanks

John Klein

[John Pic]

John, Im not sure what piece your refering to.I Am aware of two one was a mint tunic named to a KC holder which I was of the opinion was fake. The other was the one I purchased which was in no way mint. It had nap wear and was soiled around the cuff edges,and inside the collar,the lining was chaffed and sweat stained in the armpit areas,there were repairs to the seam of the liner in spots,there was a period alteration,the tail vent sewn shut.There were holes in the breast pocket where loops were ripped out.The SS runes had some thread bare spots and three of five of the front buttons had been resewn at different times with different threads.The top two, the pockets and the shoulder board buttons were all sewn with the same thread.This also is an officers dress style tunic and worn by a non combatant technical officer. But I was not seeking opinions and there is a thread at GDC if you wish to offer yours.My opinion was on the tunic you posted to get opinions on because admitedly you are not sure of the insignias.I gave my opinion which is that I would be very cautious.That being said why ask an opinion if youve made up your mind its good despite another opinion? I wish you luck and hope that if you buy it its what you wanted.

[pete]

John,

I had this tunic in my hands over xmas. Theres nothing wrong with it.

Pete

[John Pic]

Sometimes nothing wrong is not always a good sign.Even if worn for just a short period the tunic would reflect this,unless Mr.NCO was issued the tunic and imediately put it in his closet.Highly unlikely,if you ask John Moore, who spends alot of time talking with SS Veterans, by 1945 most soldiers including officers were issued 1 uniform,if they wanted more they purchased it but the kaos at that time prevented it for the most part.In an interview with an SS officer about this subject he was told that the office was only issued one tunic and when he transfered to tank duty had to turn that one in to get his tank uniform.The turned in uniforms were stripped of insignias and the insignias reused on the new tunic.Now I havnt held this particular tunic but if you had a chance to do so perhaps you can point out the key points that speak for it being a good real example, so John can make a decision.I am not trying to slam anyone but I caution against buying a tunic you havent handled yourself.

[pete]

Hmm..well i had it in my hands and it looked and felt honest enough to me and i really trust peter..i must admit though i havent held 100s of ss tunics so im no expert and i rely alot on who the seller is and his reputation to spend my hard and dangerously earned demining money wisely....enough so, I was going to buy it myself until i saw it was on hold... I believe there was some minor minor rubbing from wear on the wool in places, down around the right pockets and in a few other places where the webbing would have sat, and some on the arm so it was by no means in off the shelf shape but didnt look to me to be put right away in the closet either. I spent 12 years a s a field soldier in the Engineers and i know what it was like to beat the crap out of a tunic in the field and that would make sense to me an armoured recce guy in a vehicle or a cav guy on a horse would not have such a worn tunic. The armoured guys in my observation didnt haul the crap out of their clothes half as much as we did and they wore coveralls when working on the vehicles to keep their combats in good shape...now i am not up on the practices of ww2 armoured recce, cav tps so this is only my personal observation ...this one im sure was worn but probably not for long (maybe a year) which would be in my opinion ok for a late war tunic of this model and if they had only one uniform issued they most likely took care of it. From what i remember The insignia were all stitched right and of matching wear to the tunic and It had a texture that looked like there was tiny woodchips in the material but i was told that was actually really wood fibre (or paper?) in the material. Personally i think you did well with that one but i share your opinion on newer looking stuff but with this one the source would guarantee it enough for me. But... if you dont like it i am intrested in it, like i say i didnt see anything that gave me a bad feeling. In hindsight I have been ripped off in my past so i share your concerns.

[John Pic]

There you go..nice input for the future buyer to consider.You see how photos dont always tell a story.
Regarding Recce units,most often they rode in spw. I keep a vast Waffen SS photobook library and have yet to find a photo of coveralls being worn by men in spw. I do find some camo tunics worn over the field tunic and also drill tunics.That color piping was also for Cavalry.
John,let us know how it turns out.

[Mark Holden]

I like the look of the tunic I think there is some light wear, the sleeve eagle wear looks consistent with the tunic. I just think the runic looks a little bright in comparison to the rest of the insignia, discounting the shoulder boards which are not a good reference for wear. Just MHO.


regards

Mark

[Fritz]

John (Pic),

have a look at beaver's camo book (coverall section). There you can see SPW crews wearing coveralls as well as Panzergr. wearing coveralls. These items were not exclusivly worn by Panzerbesatzungen.

Cheers

Fritz

[John Pic]

I see two.

[Fritz]

Look at his Vol 3 too (camo section). There are a couple of more. Coveralls are relativly rare and so are the pictures. But they are still there....

[Mike C]

In Remy Spezzano's Kursk:1943 vol 1, you have what appears to be a TK panzer grenadier Hauptsturmfuhrer wearing the coveralls (pages 82 and 90); in vol 2 on page 91, you have what appears to be a SPW infantryman or reconnaisance soldier wearing the coveralls. My sense is that these coveralls were widely worn by personnel from many different units..

Mike

[Øyvind]

I might be totaly wrong about this, but isnt the EKII ribbon loose? (not atached at all)
And if so, what other things could be messed with?

Cheers
Øyvind

[pete]

I had it in my hands, Its sewn on. Its not hanging off.

Pete