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**NickG** · 12-11-2015, 01:23 AM

A portrait image and also shown walking with Kreisleiter dr. Walter Hochsteiner reviewing local "self-Defense" troops in Slovenia.
He is only a lowly SS-Oberscharführer in SD service! (Erich Dichtl on the right). The uniform is no doubt the best you can buy!
(private purchase)

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-11-2015, 01:29 AM

and here he is "leading" his the troops, this SS-Oberscharfuhrer! His uniform no doubt not too different from the one that started this thread,
to include French cuffs! (in an authority position which allowed for such a flashy uniform, just like my Feldgendarmerie Unteroffizier example)

What I am trying to illustrate is that you don't need to immediately jump to conclusions that its a demoted (restored army) officers uniform
because the quality and the rank just don't add up...Such combinations happened...even late war...this series of photos date from Sep. 1944...
so that late Totenkopf tab is not an automatic red flag either! At least not in my book...but I do tend to be a little bit more open minded!

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c12_ht42.jpg (89.7 KB, 138 views)

**RobertE** · 12-11-2015, 02:49 AM

Thanks for posting the additional pictures, Nick. I agree that NCOs took liberties, if their wallets and conditions allowed, and had higher grade uniforms produced.

There are other aspects of the uniform which don't really look SS/ SD, besides the six buttons. I also expect an NCO paying for a tunic to have some SS styling built in, such as a rock-cut on the reverse and an elongated pointy collar.

Your SD pic shows a good example of this; you can see the two buttons on the back illustrating the rock features - that's what I'd expect to see on a ground-up, tailored piece.

I continue to believe this is likely put together, but it displays well and there are no single red flags that scream fake to me.

s/f Robert

**chrischa** · 12-11-2015, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Ian Hulley View Post

Except for the strap piping it would fit the profile of a KL old timer ... IF you want to believe the rest of what we see there.

Ian

If he was a KL old timer, he would not have earned the EK2 or campaign medal (is it entry into Czecheslovakia?). This tunic is meant to represent a TK Division soldier. I agree though, if he had a service medal rather than combat medal I could believe it. Also, I belive he would have retained a better collar tab than this later war example.

If the soldier was transferred to the KL system during the war, how could he have had a Dutch made tunic and would it be tailored as this one?

Nick, your photos are very imformative but I can't recall seeing a Totenkopf soldier with such a 'Guchi' uniform. Eicke would have had a heart attack with the deviation to regulations!

**NickG** · 12-11-2015, 10:42 AM

Thanks. Yes stranger things happened is my message I guess....
but I can see both sides of the argument, but to me it is not an immediate put together blatant fake with many red flags...
It has a possibility of being war time made as presented...
Who knows, a lot can happen after 70+ years...and restoring to an NCO is cheaper than restoring to an officer (if it was built up) ...
but I still like it as such combinations did exist as I illustrated and I don't see ghosts of prior insignia...

**DKNYC71** · 12-11-2015, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Thanks. Yes stranger things happened is my message I guess....
but I can see both sides of the argument, but to me it is not an immediate put together blatant fake with many red flags...
It has a possibility of being war time made as presented...
Who knows, a lot can happen after 70+ years...and restoring to an NCO is cheaper than restoring to an officer (if it was built up) ...
but I still like it as such combinations did exist as I illustrated and I don't see ghosts of prior insignia...

Why are you so adamantly defending this tunic? To your point, YES, there were many instances of tailor made tunics for low ranking NCO's and I have even had and handled an untouched Rottenfuhrer's tunic which was high quality tailor made variety. It all came down to how much money the individual had to spend and/or what duty station and/or tasks the individual was involved with. It is my humble opinion that this tunic is put together.

Without getting into the red flags which I am able to observe, and which can easily be debated for the next 35 pages in this thread, I have one question: has anyone seen, or does anyone have a period photo showing the 'late war Dachau variety" collar tab being worn? You mentioned a pumpkin-head tab, yes, in fact, I had a tunic which had a pumpkin-head tab, this tunic was brought home my an American Doctor who entered Dachau and was/is untouched http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=TK&page=5 The tab on the tunic in this thread is not a pumpkin-head. As is the sort on this tunic, I have never seen either an example "in-hand" or in a period photo, where that late war tab (which we find in great quantity today) actually worn. I have studied TK material and photos for many years and have always been in search of unmolested SS tunics and have observed much in the process. I would be very interested to see a documented unquestionable example of this type of a tab in actual wear. I have however seen many humped-up tunics with this variety of tab on them.

**NickG** · 12-11-2015, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by DKNYC71 View Post

Why are you so adamantly defending this tunic? To your point, YES, there were many instances of tailor made tunics for low ranking NCO's and I have even had and handled an untouched Rottenfuhrer's tunic which was high quality tailor made variety. It all came down to how much money the individual had to spend and/or what duty station and/or tasks the individual was involved with. It is my humble opinion that this tunic is put together.

Without getting into the red flags which I am able to observe, and which can easily be debated for the next 35 pages in this thread, I have one question: has anyone seen, or does anyone have a period photo showing the 'late war Dachau variety" collar tab being worn? You mentioned a pumpkin-head tab, yes, in fact, I had a tunic which had a pumpkin-head tab, this tunic was brought home my an American Doctor who entered Dachau and was/is untouched http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=TK&page=5 The tab on the tunic in this thread is not a pumpkin-head. As is the sort on this tunic, I have never seen either an example "in-hand" or in a period photo, where that late war tab (which we find in great quantity today) actually worn. I have studied TK material and photos for many years and have always been in search of unmolested SS tunics and have observed much in the process. I would be very interested to see a documented unquestionable example of this type of a tab in actual wear. I have however seen many humped-up tunics with this variety of tab on them.

Just saying (illustrating) to keep an open mind...People learn from these threads, read opinions and can draw their own conclusions.
(from different viewpoints) ...
Late simple tabs on a "Gucci" uniforms worn by lower ranks can be frowned upon but not impossible. Yes the TK tabs might have been restored... Nevertheless a neat representation of a uniform with 100% war time components. Agreed that late Dachau tabs are less frequently seen in period pictures, but it is also a fact that that the majority of late PK pictures were destroyed in allied bomb raids. (an archive of millions of pictures)
The photographic record is simply incomplete...(pictures of Pink smocks in use ?)
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I have 5 SS uniforms, all restored, that's the reality in this hobby, very few untouched ones out there.
The chances this one is untouched are slim but not impossible...Not a "demoted" Heer conversion in my view. Thanks

**chrischa** · 12-11-2015, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by DKNYC71 View Post

Why are you so adamantly defending this tunic? To your point, YES, there were many instances of tailor made tunics for low ranking NCO's and I have even had and handled an untouched Rottenfuhrer's tunic which was high quality tailor made variety. It all came down to how much money the individual had to spend and/or what duty station and/or tasks the individual was involved with. It is my humble opinion that this tunic is put together.

Without getting into the red flags which I am able to observe, and which can easily be debated for the next 35 pages in this thread, I have one question: has anyone seen, or does anyone have a period photo showing the 'late war Dachau variety" collar tab being worn? You mentioned a pumpkin-head tab, yes, in fact, I had a tunic which had a pumpkin-head tab, this tunic was brought home my an American Doctor who entered Dachau and was/is untouched http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=TK&page=5 The tab on the tunic in this thread is not a pumpkin-head. As is the sort on this tunic, I have never seen either an example "in-hand" or in a period photo, where that late war tab (which we find in great quantity today) actually worn. I have studied TK material and photos for many years and have always been in search of unmolested SS tunics and have observed much in the process. I would be very interested to see a documented unquestionable example of this type of a tab in actual wear. I have however seen many humped-up tunics with this variety of tab on them.

I really like this tunic DKNYC71. Very nice.

**DKNYC71** · 12-11-2015, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Just saying (illustrating) to keep an open mind...People learn from these threads, read opinions and can draw their own conclusions.
(from different viewpoints) ...
Late simple tabs on a "Gucci" uniforms worn by lower ranks can be frowned upon but not impossible. Yes the TK tabs might have been restored... Nevertheless a neat representation of a uniform with 100% war time components. Agreed that late Dachau tabs are less frequently seen in period pictures, but it is also a fact that that the majority of late PK pictures were destroyed in allied bomb raids. (an archive of millions of pictures)
The photographic record is simply incomplete...(pictures of Pink smocks in use ?)
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I have 5 SS uniforms, all restored, that's the reality in this hobby, very few untouched ones out there.
The chances this one is untouched are slim but not impossible...Not a "demoted" Heer conversion in my view. Thanks

I completely agree with you that learning from healthy discussions is key in this hobby. In regard to "late Dachau tabs are less frequently seen in period pictures": I have not seen a single instances of this, this is after studying hundreds of photos from every source available to me and other collectors which I have come into contact with. I also agree that "untouched SS uniforms" are rare beasts. In 25 years of religious searching for un-molested, 100% provenanced tunics, I have only been able to acquire 8, and have had the pleasure of handling an additional 15-20 in top private collections. So I guess, to your point, the average collector has to be comfortable with, at best, an original garments restored with original insignia.

**Robert H** · 12-11-2015, 12:55 PM

correct

Originally posted by DKNYC71 View Post

Why are you so adamantly defending this tunic? To your point, YES, there were many instances of tailor made tunics for low ranking NCO's and I have even had and handled an untouched Rottenfuhrer's tunic which was high quality tailor made variety. It all came down to how much money the individual had to spend and/or what duty station and/or tasks the individual was involved with. It is my humble opinion that this tunic is put together.

Without getting into the red flags which I am able to observe, and which can easily be debated for the next 35 pages in this thread, I have one question: has anyone seen, or does anyone have a period photo showing the 'late war Dachau variety" collar tab being worn? You mentioned a pumpkin-head tab, yes, in fact, I had a tunic which had a pumpkin-head tab, this tunic was brought home my an American Doctor who entered Dachau and was/is untouched http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=TK&page=5 The tab on the tunic in this thread is not a pumpkin-head. As is the sort on this tunic, I have never seen either an example "in-hand" or in a period photo, where that late war tab (which we find in great quantity today) actually worn. I have studied TK material and photos for many years and have always been in search of unmolested SS tunics and have observed much in the process. I would be very interested to see a documented unquestionable example of this type of a tab in actual wear. I have however seen many humped-up tunics with this variety of tab on them.

**NickG** · 12-11-2015, 01:16 PM

Thanks yes OK understood! Obviously not an RZM pattern pumpkin TK which would be a better accepted variety for such a tunic as its of higher quality... Totally agree that such a variety (better quality and earlier) would not have raised eyebrows on such a uniform!
I misspoke using that pumpkin head term...It is a simpler variety, a (late Dachau hoard) lower cost TK, which is a possible red flag and indicator that its rebuilt...Fair enough! but still not impossible...they were issued late war...

What are the other "blatant" flaws...? I would love to be better educated on that. Is it the rayon piping on sew-in straps?
As we know tailored uniforms had all kinds of scratch made straps that tailors created using in-house parts/materials...

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