Hannas's Reich M17 SS Visor Skul

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Here are two of them: This is all that I will share at this time.

Chris

To my eyes both skulls are NOT the exact same. Apart from their marking they are not the exact same neither from their back, neither from their front. But it is indeed very possible that this 360 was made from a cast of the 1/17. It has all characteristics of such, especially "die" marks stressed by Chris which are way less pronounced on the 360. Once fakers are doing a good cast they do mark it with any markings, not only the original one. At least it is what they do for buckles and I do not see why this will not happen on items selling now about the same.

As a personal note, along all those years I found a consistency among collectors: they are really quick to reject whatever item just because they do not have records of such item been ever produced or because a gang of other collectors were just rejecting it for whatever reason. It is not logical: one has to verify the information, not to just accept it. Fakers are living on your assumptions, more and more....

[SScollector]

JP, all of the original aluminum 360/42 marked reproductions were die struck, not cast. I own several of them. Of course, there were some small changes throughout their production, (some on purpose, and some probably not). Here are some photos to consider: First, the only known correct Assmann front side pattern, (this one being an aluminum example and a bit worn).

[SScollector]

Here is a classic example of the aluminum 360/42 fake skull: The suture lines in the skull are very important.

[SScollector]

Here is an example of the M1/17 CupAl style fake.

[SScollector]

Now, we also know that the same fakers did the exact same thing with their "360/42" and "M1/17" marked eagles.
Here is the 360 style die struck fake.

[SScollector]

Here is their CupAl style M1/17 marked eagle. Note the diagonal shaped open mouth of the eagle and the shape of it's eye. Please compare with the 360/42 fake above.

[SScollector]

Here is what the original Assmann eagle features look like:
(Slightly worn die on close-up photo, but you can easily see the completely different design).

[SScollector]

Finally, we also know that other small changes were made to their eagle front die, as well as the skulls. Here is one such change: Note the straight lines in the bottom row of feathers, versus the curved lines on the bottom example.

Hope this helps!

Chris

[SScollector]

Also, the prong attachments were changed on all of their M1/17 marked insignia. Here is an example of the fake M1/17 eagle's crimps: (Similar to the changes made on their skulls).

Chris

[SScollector]

Lastly, it has always been my assumption that most, if not all of the front side dies that were used to strike original TR items were made from one original master mold in which they could use to make more dies for the front side of an item as needed. This would explain why groups of things, (for example, all aluminum Overhoff officer's buckles), are almost identical on the front side, but each year may show tiny die flaw changes, differences, etc., while many or most of the details and features remain identical. I know that this is true for SS cap insignia, through years of studying all of the various stages of changes and similarities found on them. I would also assume that this could easily be the same situation for die struck fakes. Just my thoughts!

Chris

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Lastly, it has always been my assumption that most, if not all of the front side dies that were used to strike original TR items were made from one original master mold in which they could use to make more dies for the front side of an item as needed. This would explain why groups of things, (for example, all aluminum Overhoff officer's buckles), are almost identical on the front side, but each year may show tiny die flaw changes, differences, etc., while many or most of the details and features remain identical. I know that this is true for SS cap insignia, through years of studying all of the various stages of changes and similarities found on them. I would also assume that this could easily be the same situation for die struck fakes. Just my thoughts!

Chris

I cannot comment on anything else other than SS belt buckles but for those latest they were using new dies - both front and back - very often (several of them within just one year).
Cutting/carving dies was very inexpensive and I never heard creating any of them from a mould. Müster was sent from the RZM and carver had to duplicate as much as possible this example.

[Maverick 48]

Great info. Thanks.

[Texasuberalles]

Chris:
I hope you never turn to the dark side, such attention to detail would
be the end of some collections.

[SScollector]

Chris:
I hope you never turn to the dark side, such attention to detail would
be the end of some collections.

My friend, there are plenty of things to worry about within this hobby, but please believe me when I say that you would be wasting your time to worry about that happening. I have always, and always will put my integrity way before any amount of money or any of these items that we love to study and collect.

These things are nice and fun, but none of us can take any of it with us when it is our time to go. Furthermore, I am not a rich man, but I am not looking to ever profit from this hobby either. I'm sure that when my time comes, whatever I still have will be sold to benifit my family. Until then, I am simply here to enjoy this hobby, to learn what all I can, and to share these things with whoever may be interested. We are all fully capable of making honest mistakes, and I personally, hope that all of my mistakes are just that.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Texasuberalles]

but none of us can take any of it with us when it is our time to go

'The only thing we can take with us is that which we leave behind'

Like our reputations; yours is sterling. (NO, for the benefit of other collectors, we're not dating)