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Albert, I don't see anything wrong with that cap at all! Clemens Wagner
was one of the more respected cap makers and this appears to be a
very crisp example. The stitching holding the sweatband on looks a little
sloppy, so I'd investigate that to make sure there has been no funny
business going on, (original lining sewn in to a fake SS cap) but from
these images I'd say everything looks great!

**Albert** · 01-09-2005, 10:48 AM

Thanks, Brian!
I see you can also be the bearer of good news

On a more serious note, I will take a closer look and a photo or two in a minure here. Sometimes the sewing machine had to folow the holes of the visor. I will check the areas in the back. Anything else I should take a photo of?
Albert

**Bob Coleman** · 01-09-2005, 11:10 AM

Albert-

Although they existed, private purchase NCO SS visor caps are not commonly encountered. The "newness" of this cap would cause me to suggest having it hand examined by a knowledgable collector before purchasing. It is not uncommon for the masters of deception to impress the out line of insignia on a fresh cap before marketing it. There was a local dealer who dealt in these who on a regular basis received shipments of SS visor caps from a known Europeqn dealer sans insignia but with the ghost impression of where they had been. The presence of a wartime manufacturer's label is not any guarantee of originality. I would also check the leather chin strap for signs of usage and also freshness of the leather. Overall, I am hesitant to endorse this hat from the images posted. By the way, only NCO ranks wore the gray visor. Lower ranks were regulated to the schiffen and later the feldmutze.
Bob

**Albert** · 01-09-2005, 11:20 AM

Thanks Bob,

Actually, the cap is not as new as the photos suggest. The wool shows even wear and discoloration. The insignia area has a fresher look both condition and color wise thah the rest of the top.

The chin strap looks pretty new indeed but only the leather, the metal fittings and paint look ok.

The cap definitely does not look doctored up. All stitching and joining is done the way you'd expect it.

I am attaching two more pics one of the stitching in the back where you can see how the thread has left impression marks on the leather. Plus a photo of the front where you can see the difference wool condition.

Albert

Attached Files

SVstitching.JPG (82.2 KB, 494 views)

**Albert** · 01-09-2005, 11:28 AM

And here is the "shadow" from where the eagle used to be (hopefully).

Attached Files

SVeagle.JPG (101.6 KB, 491 views)

**Bob Coleman** · 01-09-2005, 11:46 AM

Albert-

Our good colleague Donald Abenheim has coined the term "Frankenstein Hats." This defines a reproduction that incorporates some older, used parts.
Just a word of advise from an old time collector who has made this mistake many times over the years, if you need to convince yourself it is real, you are likely making an error in judgement. The top notch fakers do an excellent job emulating the stitching of the period. They also emulate sweat staining. I still see novice collectors referring to zig zag stitching under the collar of a tunic to justify its originality. Even the basic fakers began emulating that over ten years ago. If you do not have expertise in this field, find some one who does before wasting hard earned money.
Bob

**Dave Kane** · 01-09-2005, 12:56 PM

I suspect this one to be 'reupholstered'...the liner isn't laying in to the cap as it should nor has it picked up the outline of the leather!

Albert I'm sorry but this is yet another I don't like.

**Donald Abenheim** · 01-09-2005, 02:37 PM

Clemens Wagner cap: to be or not to be.

schoene Gruesse nach Franken! Thanks for the images and the wise words of the gentleman above conflict as is often the case with these things and we should all be glad that they do. I could only tell if I could look at the piece for awhile. The Erstklassig logo is used on what I believe to be the Czecho-German fakes to which colleague Coleman refers. It also appears in real SS caps, because CW made them in great numbers, especially the black ones. If this is re-made, it is well above average and very well done. One has to look at the silly thing for a long time, with great care, and, if doubt endures, then it is best to pass.

In my experience, authentic ones of these used to turn up in Germany in the early 1980s, before the fakes became so skilled and ruthless.

Sorry not be of greater service. I sure liked your KM cap a lot more than this piece, but I am so very skeptical of all grey SS caps nowadays. I feel much more in my depth with the black ones. Does anyone have other images of a known re-made cap of this type for some empirical comparison, or is that a security violation?

By the way, I cannot tell a lie: John Casino coined the phrase "Frankenstein cap" and we should attribute it to him. I am not that smart.

**SgtB** · 01-09-2005, 05:17 PM

Thanks Albert! Boy nothing is easy in this hobby anymore, is it?

I'll be the first to recommend that you never bank on my opinion
(or anybody else's) alone. Mine is based solely on my own experiences
and they have proven to be flawed at times.

Therein lies the
power of this forum. In a fraction of the time it used to take, very
knowledgeable collectors can rush in from all directions and give
excellent advice based on their own experience. You just can't beat
it.

And I can't pretend to trump the collective knowledge of Dave, Bob,
and Donald so I must defer to their judgement. They all make very good
points.

Still I like this cap. And that isn't taking it lightly. I subscribe to no
illusions as to how truly difficult originals are to locate. And I also
have a very good idea as to what lengths master forgers will go to
to screw you out of your moola.

There just isn't anything in your pics that tell me conclusively that
this cap is bad. Other than a very healthy suspicion of all things SS.
I especially like the very high crown and low (close to regulation)
placement of the eagle. Of course both are easily faked, but generally
are not.

At the end of the day, though Albert, the smart money is on the
consensus. So my best advice is to go with that.

Hey Bob! I have books chuck full of period photos showing Waffen-SS
enlisted men wearing visor caps. I'm sure it was very rare on the lines,
but for walking out, L&L, and photo ops, etc. it seems to have been
generally accepted.

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