Dachau made items.

[Robin Lumsden]

Junior.

Thanks for starting this off.

There have been more worthwhile contributions on this subject here than in any previous thread on the subject, I think.

I do not doubt that vets brought back a lot of insignia from Dachau. It was, after all, the biggest of all the SS uniform stores.

But I still do not think that all of the stuff currently being sold as 'Dachau badges' actually originated with the stuff that came back in 1945.

That's all.

Robin,

I'm a "Dachau" believer, but I'll take your statement one step further,

I do not think that all of the stuff currently being sold as "original german pre-May 45 production" is actually that"!



Fred

[pimpf]

I want to beleive ... but I don't. My reasons:

I have never seen no one such item taken as a war souvenir by veterans over here. I have never encountered no one such item found on film studio or theatre over here, only standard issue SS items. I have never seen no one such item found in ground on battle sites.

[junior]

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your input. If you don't think that the stuff now being sold as Dachau stuff isn't original, but others do, how did these came on the collectors market according to you? I've heard stories of Polish people making them after the war to sell it etc.

Thanks in advance,
Junior.

[Bob Coleman]

Robin-

I do not think anyone would disagree with your point of view on this matter. The basic point of this thread is to prove the existance of this material in period and available to the American collector market over the years in great quantity. About fifteen years ago, a friend obtained from a US Army veteran over 500 original cufftitles. As he was a dealer, he dared not show that amount as we all know how they would be judged. He patiently marketed them over a ten year period. Several years ago, I met a coin dealer who had bought a large amount of Dachau material for next to nothing at an estate sale. It included a complete roll of uncut bevo arm eagles, thirty plus foreign volunteer arm shields, ten cufftitles, mostly bevo but one beautiful flat wire Deutschland, and a large assortment of volunteer collar tabs. Among the items were also several Czech arm shields for wear on the Heer tunic.
The fakers have utilized the Dachau caches to the same purpose they began the "found in the Old East" mystic to sell high quality fake uniforms and hats. Both have their roots in fact but have been perverted for the use and profit of the scoundrals in this hobby.
Bob

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin,

I'm a "Dachau" believer, but I'll take your statement one step further,

I do not think that all of the stuff currently being sold as "original german pre-May 45 production" is actually that"!



Fred

Fred.
I can't argue with that!

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin-

I do not think anyone would disagree with your point of view on this matter. The basic point of this thread is to prove the existance of this material in period and available to the American collector market over the years in great quantity. About fifteen years ago, a friend obtained from a US Army veteran over 500 original cufftitles. As he was a dealer, he dared not show that amount as we all know how they would be judged. He patiently marketed them over a ten year period. Several years ago, I met a coin dealer who had bought a large amount of Dachau material for next to nothing at an estate sale. It included a complete roll of uncut bevo arm eagles, thirty plus foreign volunteer arm shields, ten cufftitles, mostly bevo but one beautiful flat wire Deutschland, and a large assortment of volunteer collar tabs. Among the items were also several Czech arm shields for wear on the Heer tunic.
The fakers have utilized the Dachau caches to the same purpose they began the "found in the Old East" mystic to sell high quality fake uniforms and hats. Both have their roots in fact but have been perverted for the use and profit of the scoundrals in this hobby.
Bob

Bob.
I agree with most of what you and everyone else has said. It's the collar tabs which I've still to be convinced about.

[Sergey]

I want to beleive ... but I don't. My reasons:

I have never seen no one such item taken as a war souvenir by veterans over here. I have never encountered no one such item found on film studio or theatre over here, only standard issue SS items. I have never seen no one such item found in ground on battle sites.

Hello
I have some questions to you in view of the aforesaid:
1) Did you said about Russian vets or about somebody else? If you about Russian veterans that I must say that it was null collect such nazy souvenirs for soviet soldiers. Only once during the period of my collecting I get TK early tab from veteran , which he cut-off from the tunic of German soldier during the war. And I never heared from old collectors that they gets something from vets.
2) About battle filds:Have you said about ground finds in Russia or not? If you about Russia I must say that a lot part of ss Dachau made insignia are late war european volunteers items, which never fought at the Russian territory or limited took part in battles. So it is normal that you never seen such items ground dug in Russia. Persanally I cheked insignia by some Latvian period photos of SS voulonteers: usually it is runic tabs and latvian-made sleeve shilds, but twice I have seen photos with latvian tabs and with Dachau type shilds.
So I think that such type of insignia was very uncommon, because it was made and be used in the end of the war but the fact that it was issued
P.S.
About film studios: Please dont repeat this rubbish about store-rooms full of original ss uniform .

[Donald Abenheim]

Delta International

Bob.
I agree with most of what you and everyone else has said. It's the collar tabs which I've still to be convinced about.

The old California Bay Area militaria firm, Delta International, had collar patches made in the 1960s and 1970s which were patterned, I think, on the kinds found in Dachau. These fakes proliferated at the time, and those of us in the field, especially in this area, were aware of the differences. If one considers all the absurd stories of bomb proof provenance associated with this stuff, then naturally one has to be a skeptic. Nonetheless, I have had direct experience of this material in the far, far off past. This experience included a silly Fleckentarn jump smock (mit Hose) that I dumbly sold to Andrew Mollo for USD99.00 thinking that it would avail me something.....nochmals wie dumm von mir.

[Robin Lumsden]

If one considers all the absurd stories of bomb proof provenance associated with this stuff, then naturally one has to be a skeptic.

Donald.

My point exactly!

[Donald Abenheim]

Allgemeine SS uniforms

Hello
I have some questions to you in view of the aforesaid:
1) Did you said about Russian vets or about somebody else? If you about Russian veterans that I must say that it was null collect such nazy souvenirs for soviet soldiers. Only once during the period of my collecting I get TK early tab from veteran , which he cut-off from the tunic of German soldier during the war. And I never heared from old collectors that they gets something from vets.
2) About battle filds:Have you said about ground finds in Russia or not? If you about Russia I must say that a lot part of ss Dachau made insignia are late war european volunteers items, which never fought at the Russian territory or limited took part in battles. So it is normal that you never seen such items ground dug in Russia. Persanally I cheked insignia by some Latvian period photos of SS voulonteers: usually it is runic tabs and latvian-made sleeve shilds, but twice I have seen photos with latvian tabs and with Dachau type shilds.
So I think that such type of insignia was very uncommon, because it was made and be used in the end of the war but the fact that it was issued
P.S.
About film studios: Please dont repeat this rubbish about store-rooms full of original ss uniform .

Thanks for the interesting intervention from Russia. A noted US dealer suceeded in getting some stripped black SS uniforms from some eastern European film source in the early-1990s. The pieces have ghosted around here and now seem all collected up. I think colleague Coleman can speak to this point, as he is a keen observer of this material. The piece I examined had a "Lenfilm" stamp (I cannot tell if it is real), but the tunic itself is 100% authentic. I have seen others, as have certain noted dealers here. There was also a fair amount of stuff extracted from the Czech republic, which had a large SS rear area infrastructure, much of which must have still been intact at about the same time the US liberated Dachau. However, much of this is collector lore, save for the Dachau issue which stands beyond doubt.

[Donald Abenheim]

Vielen Dank nach Schottland

[/color]

Donald.

My point exactly!

Thanks. I am a skeptic about nearly everything, actually, because I am a professional historian (...look in Google....) and I was raised thus, especially in German pro-Seminare in the Universitaet Koeln always to approach all the evidence of the past with a keen, searching eye. Hence, the posing of this question offers us all a healthy chance to look at our assumptions. My issue, though, is the monopoly of expertise proclaimed by certain glamor dealers linked to certain glamor collectors especially in the US, who denigrate everything and everyone else. Expertise should be disinterested and unbound from profit. In any case, colleague Lumsden, I do admire your writing ( I know how hard it is to do...) and think posing the question of this kind has value to us all.

[Mr.Jerry D]

I too agree with the positive educatioal discourse that questions like this can generate.

But any one of the "non-believers" are welcome to send me any cufftitles, collar tabs, and other 'dachau' SS insignia that they don't believe in!

[pimpf]

Hello
I have some questions to you in view of the aforesaid:
1) Did you said about Russian vets or about somebody else? If you about Russian veterans that I must say that it was null collect such nazy souvenirs for soviet soldiers. Only once during the period of my collecting I get TK early tab from veteran , which he cut-off from the tunic of German soldier during the war. And I never heared from old collectors that they gets something from vets.
2) About battle filds:Have you said about ground finds in Russia or not? If you about Russia I must say that a lot part of ss Dachau made insignia are late war european volunteers items, which never fought at the Russian territory or limited took part in battles. So it is normal that you never seen such items ground dug in Russia. Persanally I cheked insignia by some Latvian period photos of SS voulonteers: usually it is runic tabs and latvian-made sleeve shilds, but twice I have seen photos with latvian tabs and with Dachau type shilds.
So I think that such type of insignia was very uncommon, because it was made and be used in the end of the war but the fact that it was issued
P.S.
About film studios: Please dont repeat this rubbish about store-rooms full of original ss uniform .

Sergey

It nice to hear from You but:

1. I mean Russian vets, not simply soldiers or officers but NKVD and KGB officers who had collection of SS stuff I was lucky to see personally and buy items from there. Have you ever heard about Bakhchivandzhi museum of uniform ? They have no Dachau stuff in their collections. No one Dachau item was not found in Central Army Museum funds, no one came from Kransogorsk.

2. I meant founds from late war battlefields in Germany and Netherlands. Not only in Russia. No one groun dug Dachau made collar patch or something from this source.

What about film studios You are wrong at all ... I just personally own original SS tunics and headgears obtained from there. I know a lot of peoples who has theatre or film studio obtained stuff: both uniform and insignia. No one Dachau made item was not found there.

Cheers,
Alex

[Jody]

I want to beleive ... but I don't. My reasons:

I have never seen no one such item taken as a war souvenir by veterans over here. I have never encountered no one such item found on film studio or theatre over here, only standard issue SS items. I have never seen no one such item found in ground on battle sites.

Hello Alex,
I noticed you used the photo of my TK collar tab, and I would like to respond. That item was liberated from Dachau and I got it from a 100% good vet source.

Just because you do not want to believe it, does not alter the fact that it came from Dachau in 1945.
Regards,
Jody
P.S.-This bronze Panzer Badge came from the same source, I hope it isn't bad.