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**Winkelman** · 03-16-2015, 06:58 PM

Last two both from the site of Martin Stiles ..

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NO piping 2.jpg (14.9 KB, 237 views)

**BrianK** · 03-17-2015, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Scott A. Hess View Post

Just a thought, if the piece should be approached with extreme caution, why should it not in some way be a reflection on the seller? I would approach many things on this site with extreme caution. Good items are to be found there for sure, but IMO the number of highly questionable ones and out right repros cannot be overlooked, and throws suspicion to me on anything offered. I give sellers the benefit of the doubt on extremely rare items, the item may just not be within their knowledge base, but when I see quite common items that are bad, it should and does reflect on ANY seller be they a straight collector or dealer.

Which are the highly questionable items?

**BENS** · 03-17-2015, 05:06 AM

Brown shirt

Ben

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def-reduit.jpg (224.3 KB, 216 views)

**sgstandard** · 03-17-2015, 01:24 PM

Every photo I've seen of pre 1934 Motor-SA men shows them wearing Driver Qualification sleeve badges. Motor-SS is no different. Where's the sleeve badge on this shirt? As for SS brownshirts owned by forum members, their possession doesn't automatically mean they're good. This is not to cast dispersion on member's items, but I'd bet the majority of SS brownshirts you see from anywhere didn't begin that way.

**BrianK** · 03-17-2015, 01:45 PM

I still want to know which are the "number of highly questionable ones and outright repros"?

**wewelsburg** · 03-17-2015, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by sgstandard View Post

Every photo I've seen of pre 1934 Motor-SA men shows them wearing Driver Qualification sleeve badges. Motor-SS is no different. Where's the sleeve badge on this shirt? As for SS brownshirts owned by forum members, their possession doesn't automatically mean they're good. This is not to cast dispersion on member's items, but I'd bet the majority of SS brownshirts you see from anywhere didn't begin that way.

Ofcourse not! but the ones ive posted are owned by members with outstanding collections of Merit,the one next to one of them is a Strossgrupper tunic and we all know his collection of fine SS items!! The other is owned by Bob coleman we all know his collection of fine uniforms..I would not post peices that dont have provenence or background.You know me SGstandard.The third has been discussed greatly on War Relic forum.Another at Ulrics has no title either and is in several books,also many pics of brownshirt men of that period have uniforms without cufftitles,as well as MANY tunics black and grey,it doesnt mean much to have no cufftitle.Teh driver raute I can agree with you on.

**sgstandard** · 03-17-2015, 04:50 PM

Shirt

Another reason I'm very suspicious of some SS brownshirts, is that those SA-style shoulderboards were only worn by SS for a short time (if I'm correct), but the exact same shoulderboard was worn by 2 different SA Gruppes from 1938 to 1939, so they're not that scarce. The lack of buttons could mean nothing or everything. Where did they go? IMO, there's a very good chance they were never there, and the enterprising assembler could only find 2 black leather buttons. Just a guess, but a good one, based on odds alone. The shirt could be perfectly original, but when an extremely-rare SS brownshirt pops up, and is billed as such, it's natural to ask.........other than the collar tabs and armband, WHY this is an SS shirt, and not a metamorphocized SA shirt? It could be either, but if you are an SS collector who has trouble sleeping, is it a gamble you are willing to take?

**wewelsburg** · 03-17-2015, 06:30 PM

very good points,so you think its an SA shirt with tabs attached and armband and 2 added buttons..hmm.but it did come iwth other correct uniforms...but hey its very possible you are 100% correct,buttons is s surefire example,and it is odd about the SA type board,love to see if ther is an rzm tag under it.

**sgstandard** · 03-18-2015, 12:13 PM

Shirt

RZM tags on 1st-pattern, bi-color piping SA shoulderboards like this one must be pretty rare - I don't ever remember seeing one....... ever. They're very prevalent on 2nd-pattern SA boards, though.
As for the shirt, I'm not saying conclusively that it's a mock-up. Just pointing out the minefield out there when it comes to such rare garments

.

**BrianK** · 03-18-2015, 02:25 PM

**sgstandard** · 03-18-2015, 04:20 PM

SS Snoozer

Someone please wake up BrianK

, and tell him his Cream-of-Wheat and glass of warm milk are ready

. He dozed off because he obviously finds such banter trivial, and beneath a fellow of such refined taste and opinion as himself. Don't be misled by the fact that, so far, he has contributed absolutely zero to the thread. Just like our new king in Washington DC, he is always 3 steps ahead of everyone else, and he just APPEARS to be a screwup.

**wewelsburg** · 03-18-2015, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by sgstandard View Post

RZM tags on 1st-pattern, bi-color piping SA shoulderboards like this one must be pretty rare - I don't ever remember seeing one....... ever. They're very prevalent on 2nd-pattern SA boards, though.
As for the shirt, I'm not saying conclusively that it's a mock-up. Just pointing out the minefield out there when it comes to such rare garments

.

true the paper type werent used til 36 I think,well ss rzm anyhow..

**blitzkrieg gsd** · 03-18-2015, 09:20 PM

I like to hear the banter from you two it's been a good argument so far. Should have said been a good disagreement between you guys. Feel like I have learned what to look for on these rare shirts because of your conversation. So please guys continue I'm learning some good stuff again.

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