Alte kämpfer chevron: Black vs. green edge

[militaria.no]

Hello guys

I have an interesting question (or at least I think it is interesting): I have studied SS `Old Fighter Chevrons` here on waf and I have seen `three different types`:

A. Chevron with a black edge,
B. Chevron with a green edge,
C. Chevron without edge (but in the regular silver with two black stripes sewn to a field grey backing).

A and B I have borrowed from other posts here on waf. C I have bough on e-stand.

And I have found this info here on waf:

Yes, it was worn on the upper right arm, but the chevron varied depending on the branch. You had variations for the following:

NSFK
SA
Polizei
Allgemine SS
Waffen SS

Additionally, a Chevron w/ pip was added in July 1935 for members of the SS who had been former members of the Military / Polizei before 30 Janauary 1933.

Basically it was 1 cm braid, stitched directly to the uniform or affixed to a matching piece of cloth.

Hope that helps,
Andrew

First variation A:

[militaria.no]

Variation B:

[militaria.no]

Variation C:

[militaria.no]

I know you can find different styles on wartime SS tunics. And sometimes they mixed alte kampfer chevron for police and SS.

But my question is: The last shown chevron (C. Chevron without black/green edge but in the regular silver with two black stripes sewn to a field grey backing): Is this an early SS VT chevron or early Waffen-SS chevron (for field grey tunic) before they started to embroider these with a green edge? Or is this made for Polizei?

[SCHUPO]

The ones with a Police green wool backing are for the Polizei.

[Robert H]

Or for the VT green Uniform.
Also Winkel on white are in existance.
I collect those Winkels since decades.

[militaria.no]

Or for the VT green Uniform.

Thank you for your help with my questions What Robert writes is what I have been thinking. Here you can see the back. The chevron has been machine sewn to the field grey fabric and the angle has been hand sewn to a tunic (traces of being tunic removed). So absence of a green/black edge on the chevron also made me think SS-VT.

[wolfslair]

Interesting thread
I've got Variation B
What does that mean? Where does it fit in with the A-SS / W-SS time line?
Steve

[wolfslair]

I'm surprised nobody has commented further on this subject

[militaria.no]

This is not my ”main field” and I do not have much knowledge on this topic. But I have searched for answers and I also think this give an answer regarding the “Waffen-SS time line”. Because: Sometime during this period, around 1940, they must have decided to make these old fighter chevrons with green edge for green Waffen-SS/Polizei tunics. But I do not know the distinction between green (or black?) for Waffen-SS and green for Polizei.

Did Waffen-SS by regulation use pre-war chevrons with black edge for Allgemeine-SS? (I have seen both black and green beeing used).

Was the chevron with green edge made for Polizei/SS-Polizei? Maybe someone can shed some light on this?


Here we go with the time line:

• The origins of the Waffen-SS can be traced back to the selection of a group of 120 SS men in March 1933 by Josef "Sepp" Dietrich to form the Sonderkommando Berlin. By November 1933 the formation was 800 men strong, and at a remembrance ceremony in Munich for the tenth anniversary of the failed Munich Putsch the regiment swore allegiance to Hitler.
• In 1936, Himmler selected former Lieutenant General Paul Hausser to be Inspector of the SS-VT with the rank of Brigadefuhrer. Hausser transformed the SS-VT into a credible military force that was a match for the regular army.
• On 17 August 1938, Hitler declared that the SS-VT would have a role in domestic as well as foreign affairs, which transformed this growing armed force into the rival that the army had feared. He decreed that service in the SS-VT qualified to fulfill military service obligations, although service in the SS-Totenkopfverbände or SS-TV would not.

1939 Invasion of Poland
Himmler's military formations at the outbreak of the war comprised several subgroups which would become the basis of the Waffen-SS. In August 1939, Hitler placed the Leibstandarte and the SS-VT under the operational control of the Army High Command (OKH). Himmler retained command of the Totenkopfstandarten, for employment behind the advancing combat units in what were euphemistically called "police and security duties". Events during the Invasion of Poland raised doubts over the combat effectiveness of the SS-VT. Their willingness to fight was never in doubt; at times they were almost too eager. The OKW reported that the SS-VT had unnecessarily exposed themselves to risks and acted recklessly, incurring heavier losses than army troops.

• In October 1939, Deutschland, Germania, and Der Führer were reorganized into the SS-Verfügungs Division. The Leibstandarte remained independent and was increased in strength to a reinforced motorized regiment. Hitler authorized the creation of two new divisions: the SS Totenkopf Division, formed from militarized Standarten of the SS-Totenkopfverbände, and the Polizei Division, formed from members of the national police force.


1940 expansion
Himmler gained approval for the Waffen-SS to form its own high command, the Kommandoamt der Waffen-SS within the SS-Führungshauptamt, which was created in August 1940. It received command of the SS-VT (the Leibstandarte and the Verfügungs-Division, renamed Reich) and the armed SS-TV regiments (the Totenkopf-Division together with several independent Totenkopf-Standarten). In August 1940 SS chief of staff Gottlob Berger approached Himmler with a plan to recruit volunteers in the conquered territories from the ethnic German and Germanic populations. At first Hitler had doubts about recruiting foreigners, but he was persuaded by Himmler and Berger.


Alter Kämpfer ("Old Fighter") is a term referring to the earliest members of the Nazi Party, i.e. those who joined it before the Reichstag elections of September 1930, with many belonging to the Party as early as its first foundation in 1919–1923. Those who joined the Party after the electoral breakthrough of September 1930 were known to the Alte Kämpfer as Septemberlings while those who joined the Party after the assumption of power on January 30, 1933 were known as the "March Violets". As the party's "Old Guard" and of proven dedication to the movement during its so-called "Period of Struggle" (Kampfzeit) in 1925–1933, they were distinguished from the flood of new members who joined in 1933 and later for opportunistic reasons. A number of special awards/insignia were instituted for this purpose:

• the Honour Chevron for the Old Guard, awarded to those who had joined the Party or its affiliated organizations before 30 January 1933;
• the Golden Party Badge, awarded to the first 100,000 members of the party;
• the oldest members, those who had participated in the abortive 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, were further decorated with the Blood Order.

Nazi propaganda glorified them as a small handful of fighters against almost impossible odds.

[militaria.no]

Norwegian Axis partner Nasjonal Samling (National Unity) followed the same `Alter Kämpfer` chevron tradition. Here you can see an ultra rare NS chevron together with what I now believe to be an early German SS-VT chevron.

[militaria.no]

In this picture you can see NS nestregimentsfører Thorvald Thronsen in a Hird tunic with a NS chevron:

[militaria.no]

...and I will put the German chevron on display together with this eagle :

[Robert H]

a harder to find one

[militaria.no]

As I have seen other Alter Kämpfer chevrons online I had this thread in mind and I have collected photos for us to learn. Here I will compare the mentioned VT chevron with an early SA chevron I bought from hiscoll.com and a NSDAP chevron from e-stand.

First out the SA chevron listed as “Ehrenwinkel für Altgediente Kämpfer o. Angehörigen der SA (or honor-chevron for old campaigners)”: