Totenkopf Ring

[sgstandard]

Ring

After previously looking at this ring and thinking it was probably good, I noticed Mr. Ferrari's reluctance to bless it. His previous expertise made me want to take a 2nd look, and I now agree with him, and believe that it's probably not original. I was fooled by the excellent capital "K", and the whole name and date in general, and the expertise at which the 1st "H' in Himmler looked so good. I didn't really see what Mr. Ferrari was specifically referring to in red ink, but here are my observations. A. As I mentioned earlier, the patina doesn't look right - and one red flag leads to another. B. The disjointed angle of the eyes makes the skull look retarded. C. Nose is not normal. D. Teeth are not normal, and the leaves adjoining the skull look deformed. E. (This what convinced me the most)....
the skull/band "wear" is not believable. (Think about it, and you'll know what I mean. ANOTHER thing that fooled me was the 1st "H" in Himmler. Almost perfect crosshatch, but look close and you can see it wasn't one continual engraving stroke. This is hard for fakers to accomplish, because the vertical stems automatically "reroute" the engraver's horizontal stroke because of their angles. But this, alone, wouldn't make it a fake ring, IMO, just a "little red flag". The 2nd "H" isn't as well done, but notice the dotting of the "i", compared to the perfect other "i". Casting flaw? How can that be??? - unless it's just discoloration. Now look at the 1st "i" in Himmler. What's going on behind that scratch? F. Where IS that joiner line exactly? - hard to see on some originals, but why the large discolored circle where the joiner line usually is? Why are there so few photos of the outside? What happened to the swastika rune area? The last thing I noticed is the weird color of the inside, like it was sanded and never fully recovered. Lots of questions, but the wear bothers me perhaps the most. I'm not here to ruin anyone's day. These are just my honest opinions and observations. I am not a professional - I only play one on the forum. I should have looked at it closer in the first place. BTW......That large scratch I mentioned........follow it, and it looks like it's hiding a possible flaw in the bottom of the "i".

[Emeredato]

Thanks for the detailed information on the ring. Thats very interesting, also what Ric wrote on the ring.
The only thing I don`t get here is:
1. Why should sell the familiy a fake ring so hard worn ?
2. Why do I get offers from members on WAF to buy the ring if I get it ?
3. Why is the family looking for documents of the owner ?

I hope I get paperwork on the weekend to get more light in this case.
Thanks for all help so far, I will keep you informed.
Regards
Sascha

[Ric Ferrari]

Thanks for the detailed information on the ring. Thats very interesting, also what Ric wrote on the ring.
The only thing I don`t get here is:
1. Why should sell the familiy a fake ring so hard worn ?
2. Why do I get offers from members on WAF to buy the ring if I get it ?
3. Why is the family looking for documents of the owner ?

I hope I get paperwork on the weekend to get more light in this case.
Thanks for all help so far, I will keep you informed.
Regards
Sascha

Hello Sascha,

I can tell you that recently I purchased by a well known German auktion house a beautiful Honor ring in mint condition and claimed by the auctioneer himself as coming from the Vet family.

When I got it in hands I realized something didn't convince me about originality and I contacted Don (Boyle) for reading his opinion based on high definition pics at first.

Then I decided to have it checked by Don (at my cost) and he confirmed my suspect : I did purchase a super fake (now returned with rembursement)

I can add the best one ever seen in hands almost perfect, but fortunately still wrong in few features.

How was it possible the family offering a fake ring ? Same question as you.

Of cours few explanations could be offered.......

Ric

[Byzanti]

heres what i keep seeing, and to be transparent- not an expert here, just an opinion based on an observation- and i truly do not know if its relevant. i do NOT want to rip down a good ring with what might be taken as a bad comment... ric hit it on the head with sending it away for a coa. this is critical, but i understand its tough sending from EU for many reasons...thats a personal call there....but help me understand, why is there like an interior "bevel" on both the top and bottom interior of the ring, creating an inner "band" where the engraving is? were the dies (reverse) beveled that way? did the gahr jewelers finish the ring with leaves over the band sometimes?
mike

[sgstandard]

Ring

Post #3......When they added the patina to the inside inscription, they also patined the scratches, IMO. How could that be if all original?
Post #4.....no way in hell the Sig-Rune on the viewer's left is worn that badly, and yet, the skull shows far less wear. Same for the other side. How do the sides get worn so badly when it's between your fingers?
As for the "bevel" you're seeing, I've often noticed that, and it's usually the lighting, IMO.
Post #2 (top pic)......Look at the Sig-Rune border on the left side, and the leaves that attach to it. Where's the separation between leaves and border? The wear of this Sig-Rune is nowhere near enough to completely erase that border edge, and it looks cast. No way.
As I said earlier.....that large inside scratch is designed to cover the defect in the "i" in "Himmler", IMO. And the 2nd dotted "i" is a mess too.

[Emeredato]

Thanks for all the help. I stay in contact with Don Boyle for a COA as soon as I have it here.
I will Keep you all informed.
Regards
Sascha

[Ric Ferrari]

Thanks for all the help. I stay in contact with Don Boyle for a COA as soon as I have it here.
I will Keep you all informed.
Regards
Sascha

Well done

I'm looking forward to hear Don's opinion, but in the meanwhile better pics would be more than welcome.

Ric

[Emeredato]

Got an Email today after all resarch and information I did for the family / for the ring owner, they dicided to give it to an (not know yet) auction house in germany.
I told them without a COA ist will be hard to sell. They told me there are good experts for militaria.
Well, that live....never know what all this is good for

Heads up, the next ring will come ;-)
regards
Sascha

[Dmv]

Sounds more like it was getting too hot under their feet with all your investigation?!

[Byzanti]

Got an Email today after all resarch and information I did for the family / for the ring owner, they dicided to give it to an (not know yet) auction house in germany.
I told them without a COA ist will be hard to sell. They told me there are good experts for militaria.
Well, that live....never know what all this is good for

Heads up, the next ring will come ;-)
regards
Sascha

Sascha, I for one respect the transparency and due diligence you performed for the family! You did the right thing all the way through. I agree with ric (with his thumbs up comment in regard to the COA). You've advised the owner responsibly, and kept us all in the loop. I know rics gonna keep an eye on german auction houses for us and this is how we clean the hobby.
The next ring will certainly come, good luck- and God bless!
Mike

[Ric Ferrari]

Got an Email today after all resarch and information I did for the family / for the ring owner, they dicided to give it to an (not know yet) auction house in germany.
I told them without a COA ist will be hard to sell. They told me there are good experts for militaria.
Well, that live....never know what all this is good for

Heads up, the next ring will come ;-)
regards
Sascha

Hello Sascha,

Karl's ring is not a one looker as already said and may be the new is not so bad.

On the other hand selling by an auction house is the best way to avoid any responsability about originality : if the auction's expert say it's good then it is......

Ric

[sgstandard]

Ring

Just for the hell of it, why not e-mail those pics to Don Boyle, and tell him you were going to send that ring to him, and the family backed out. His e-mail isn't a secret (honorringman@webtv.net) Don't ask him to authenticate it - just explain that it raised many questions on WAF, and maybe he'll at least give you a hint. It doesn't hurt to ask. If you word it properly, he may help you in a subtle way.
PS: A hint........One of the reasons he doesn't like to authenticate or denounce a ring, especially without holding it, is because the person then goes on the forum and says..........'Don Boyle this, and Don Boyle that, and then he gets drug into the argument. So perhaps ask him in a subtle way.

[Emeredato]

Just for the hell of it, why not e-mail those pics to Don Boyle, and tell him you were going to send that ring to him, and the family backed out. His e-mail isn't a secret (honorringman@webtv.net) Don't ask him to authenticate it - just explain that it raised many questions on WAF, and maybe he'll at least give you a hint. It doesn't hurt to ask. If you word it properly, he may help you in a subtle way.
PS: A hint........One of the reasons he doesn't like to authenticate or denounce a ring, especially without holding it, is because the person then goes on the forum and says..........'Don Boyle this, and Don Boyle that, and then he gets drug into the argument. So perhaps ask him in a subtle way.

Sounds like a plan

[butschekantiques]

Totenkopfring for review

Hello everyone,

Any comments on this one appreciated.

Many thanks!
Klaus

[Ric Ferrari]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=789108

Ric