Need help with this ss smock

[Fritz]

Phil,
what you call bluish tint is exactly what I mean. This color is known as "red-green". Just like the protective uniform for reconnaissance crews which are also published in Vol. 3 (page 787 as example). The color is more or less strong but should always be "red-green"...NEVER gray........This and several other things make me believe that this smock isn't good...

Cheers

Fritz

[ppsh41]

Photographic Evidence!

This photo is from Bender's excellent LAH reference, page 197. Copyright belongs to him. It shows the "pink" smock being worn. The 4 "paving stones" that are unique to this pattern and the funny part down the arm are clearly shown.

I believe they're real. They've been around too long - long before the money was in this hobby -- and too costly to produce at the time.
Best,
Tom

[phild]

This photo is from Bender's excellent LAH reference, page 197. Copyright belongs to him. It shows the "pink" smock being worn. The 4 "paving stones" that are unique to this pattern and the funny part down the arm are clearly shown.

I believe they're real. They've been around too long - long before the money was in this hobby -- and too costly to produce at the time.
Best,
Tom

Tom, That is one of the few books on the SS that I don't have. I understood you to say that this is a period photo? The pattern certainly look the same to me. The photo is credited to Harper, I wonder if he can attribute the unit and or location? I for one really appreciate your input with this photo and it pretty much seals the question for me. The "pink" smocks that are not even pink can hold their heads up with pride now.

[InfanterieSammler]

I for one really appreciate your input with this photo and it pretty much seals the question for me. The "pink" smocks that are not even pink can hold their heads up with pride now.

I agree that photo pretty much seals the deal for me. Reenactors did wear these smocks! Phil, sorry, I couldn't resist. I believe it is a modern photo...John

[phild]

John, you are right, if it is a modern photo the laugh is on me and picture Tom posted does not seem to be period...but I guess I will see. It's amazing how many credible (I know that does not make these original!) publications that these have made it into and how many otherwise sane people believe these are period. I am not a fool...except that I collect 3rd Reich militaria!, and I feel pretty solid in experience on 3rd Reich cloth...not to say that I could not be mistaken. With that in mind, if these are fakes my hat is off to the guys who set this operation up 25 years ago and pulled off a fake from the ground up without benefit of using leftover material or re-working shelter quarters to produce a fake better that modern fakers have been able to do with superb references and computer driven graphic and printing technology.
I have never examined a fake smock that had the little tell-tale details as right as these.

[Stossgruppe3]

Pink Smock .......

I have one for sale if anyone is interested ....... ?????? David

[Steiner]

Tom

Is it possible to show the whole picture instead of just the detail of that smock?

[Fritz]

Phil,

they can not be made from Zeltbahnen. If you'd want to use a Zeltbahn to make a smock you'll need to make additional seams, seams that can't be found on originals. A Zeltbahn is too small to produce a smock the correct way. These smocks are not made from period ss Zeltbahnen. Furthermore I have heard that the "pink" smock is not water proof...I can't say that for sure as I have never handeled one...There are too many things that aren't correct with this type of smock...

The shown photograph might (must?) be of post war origin. For me this smock is 100% a fake item...though I might be wrong .

Cheers

Fritz

[phild]

Phil,

they can not be made from Zeltbahnen. If you'd want to use a Zeltbahn to make a smock you'll need to make additional seams, seams that can't be found on originals. A Zeltbahn is too small to produce a smock the correct way. These smocks are not made from period ss Zeltbahnen. Furthermore I have heard that the "pink" smock is not water proof...I can't say that for sure as I have never handeled one...There are too many things that aren't correct with this type of smock...

The shown photograph might (must?) be of post war origin. For me this smock is 100% a fake item...though I might be wrong .

Cheers

Fritz

Fritz, I realize the problem of making a correct smock out of a Zeltbahn and I guess my reference was misleading. I made the comment because in the late 1970s (when the set up and idea for these would have had to occur...if they are fake) no one could make even semi serious SS camo material. All of the fakes that were fooling collectors during that period were made from original material...some of it salvage (or really pillaged!) from Zeltbahns.

The material on my smock is water repellant, but not waterproof. Most or all of the duck material used by the SS was treated with a wax based liquid called Peristol (sp?) that is still made today...at least for industry. As would be correct for 42 and 43 vintage duck, these smocks show a slightly coarser fiber than do the very early smocks. The coarser material does not allow for the same degree of tightness in the weave and hence does not expand quite as much when wet....sealing the fabric and blocking out water. As I've stated a couple of times earlier, these smocks show signs that they were laundered, not doubt in big batched and by the mother of all washing machines! I noticed this the first few seconds that I looked at my smock and have seen it on most all of the other since. I would bet that this action removed much of the treatment that the fabric had been given.

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Bud O'tool, now that is a name I have not heard in a long time!

He borrowed my SS Pzr. camou combi for measurements, he sure knew how to make SS camou. He was a master. He had some nice real stuff also, and did pick a few things up from him.

Steve

[Fritz]

Phil,

I roughly know on the water repelency abilities of (with persistol treatened) SS camo and also a bit about the fabric quality as I have also handeled 1 or 2 items which I believe to be good. As I said I never held one of these "pinkies" in my hands, I only heard that they are not water repelent. This I heard from several, in my eyes, reliable sources. But it still is possible that I heard something wrong. Modern repros use teflon instead of persistol as it is easier to use and to get. These "Teflon smocks" don't reach the water repelency level that a well done persistol treatened item can do. But as I said I have none of these pinkies so I can't test...I can only look at the pics (which is enough for me) and listen to those that own such smocks....

I don't want to argue about these smocks. I just told you what I don't like with these special smocks and these concerns make ME believe that they are not good. If you and others believe them to be good it is very much ok for me and it is possible that you are right...

Cheers

Fritz

[Aave Johns]

[QUOTE=LetsGo82nd]Just wanted to get some opinions on what I believe to be a M42-Type I, Oak Leaf A, SS smock. This is the first smock that I have ever purchased and thought I would get some opinions while I have an inspection period on the item. Dealer I got it from says that he purchased it directly from an 82d vet who acquired it during the Normandy Campaign. Thanks. -jeremy

I'm sure I have seen this type of smock before in one of my books, it definately had that brick red look about it. It was either in "Waffen SS Uniforms in Colour Photographs" or "Waffen SS Camouflage and Post-war Derivatives". If I find it I will PM you Jeremy, and you can check it out for yourself.

Regards
Johnsy

[ppsh41]

Scan of page

Here's Bender's photos - perhaps someone could contact the person the photo is credited to and find out more about the photo (they're real - trust me).
Tom

[phild]

Here's Bender's photos - perhaps someone could contact the person the photo is credited to and find out more about the photo (they're real - trust me).
Tom

Thanks Tom, I agree the photo seems very much of the period (Harper would know for sure as it is credited to him) and the unique pattern that you pointed out...esp, the "paving stone" element is something that is identical and unique to the smocks that are the subject of this thread. I see strong evidence that this pattern did in fact exist and also interesting is the fact that the smock in the photo does not have the center line of stitching in the camo loops....as all of the "pink" smocks that I can recall seeing do have. Both styles of camo loops are correct for 2nd model smocks so this phots tells me there was more than one batch of smocks made from this material and pattern.

When one figures that there were probably at least one hundred thousand SS smocks produced (1 for every 9 soldiers seems very conservative and does not even allow for wear out replacement) then it becomes sort of obvious how little the collector community really knows about these and possible variations. Even if we had 1000 examples to study (the figure of all smocks published in references is well under 100!) then we just would have 1% of the full scope to draw conclusions from!

You did well in connecting that photo to these smocks.

[ppsh41]

Shoulder Straps

The first of these smocks I owned came from a "big name dealer" as an original and with a money back guarantee. That smock didn't have the sleeve straps but did have them on the chest! I sent it back for a refund after being told it was fake.

The second came from a "big name dealer" as a copy. It is perfect!
I still believe in them.
Tom