Need help with this ss smock

[LetsGo82nd]

Just wanted to get some opinions on what I believe to be a M42-Type I, Oak Leaf A, SS smock. This is the first smock that I have ever purchased and thought I would get some opinions while I have an inspection period on the item. Dealer I got it from says that he purchased it directly from an 82d vet who acquired it during the Normandy Campaign. Thanks. -jeremy

smock 020.jpg (68.9 KB)
<!-- END TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --> smock 016.jpg (67.9 KB)
<!-- END TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --> smock 011.jpg (71.4 KB)
<!-- END TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --> smock 022.jpg (75.0 KB)
<!-- END TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newpost_attachmentbit --> smock 017.jpg (98.4 KB)

[LetsGo82nd]

more pics

more pics
smock 009.jpg (86.4 KB)
smock 013.jpg (66.4 KB)
smock 012.jpg (59.5 KB)
smock 014.jpg (85.1 KB)
smock 018.jpg (68.5 KB)

[LetsGo82nd]

yet more pics

yet more pics. let me know if i can provide anymore photos that will help. thanks. smock 010.jpg (91.4 KB)
smock 015.jpg (83.2 KB)
smock 019.jpg (62.6 KB)
smock 021.jpg (71.6 KB)

[InfanterieSammler]

You are correct about the style, it's an M-42 Type I. However, I don't believe this is an original smock. I don't like the coloring of the smock, as well as few other characteristics. Their often can be variation in color among camo items, even of the same pattern due various factors including the dyes used, aging, etc. However, I have never seen an original Oakleaf camo garment that looked like this. The coloring is the biggest turn off for me...Another characteristic typical for this type of smock (M-42) was the use of scrap material in the construction. This is often reflected by material with printing errors(white lines) or even different camo patterns (Planetree, Blurred Edge, etc.), being used to finish the smock; usually seen in neck reinforcement, chest closure flap, pocket flaps, and the bottom of the sleeves...Just my thoughts. Best, John

[InfanterieSammler]

Here is example from my collection of M-42 Type I, in Oakleaf...I also have an original M-42 Type I, in Planetree on the eStand - it's not cheap, but it's the best example of an original I've ever owned...Best, John

[LetsGo82nd]

You are correct about the style, it's an M-42 Type I. However, I don't believe this is an original smock. I don't like the coloring of the smock, as well as few other characteristics. Their often can be variation in color among camo items, even of the same pattern due various factors including the dyes used, aging, etc. However, I have never seen an original Oakleaf camo garment that looked like this. The coloring is the biggest turn off for me...Another characteristic typical for this type of smock (M-42) was the use of scrap material in the construction. This is often reflected by material with printing errors(white lines) or even different camo patterns (Planetree, Blurred Edge, etc.), being used to finish the smock; usually seen in neck reinforcement, chest closure flap, pocket flaps, and the bottom of the sleeves...Just my thoughts. Best, John

My main concern was with the coloring. I wasn't able to find any examples of a smock with those shades of coloring but did find other Oak Leaf A pattern unifroms with similar colors in Michael Beaver's book. So I thought it was possible that the material used to make those uniform could have possibly been used to make smocks as well, I guess not. Maybe you could help me for future reference through Private Message about the other problems with this smock. Thanks a lot for the help. -jeremy

[Greg Domian]

Jeremy,
I guess I will jump in the fire and say ..I do believe these so called "pink" smocks are real. I am one of the few..if any on this forum who does believe this and really have no proof to give you to substantiate my feelings other than the history of where the majority of these smocks came from and how they became shuned. I know major collectors who have these in their collections..and feel good about them. The pedigree of mine goes back to the 80's thru several collector/dealers. Other than the off color of these smocks(against known originals) the constuction and feel of the smock is what I look for and compare to other smocks. I have had access to numerous smocks in a large collection and have compared mine to those in the collection and I am confident that it is correct and to have it in my collection. I know it is not your prototypical smock..One has to deal with that when confronting the smock guru's who poo-poo these. It is like the round cornered KC's that have been debated in the other forums...you either believe or don't believe. It will always come to that when having something in your collection. If you paid a lot of money for the item and are not sure..then let it go..but if you got it at a reasonable price..then keep it.

Greg

Greg

[Gary Wood]

This type of smock was discussed in length on the GD forum, Robert noss provide good insight to these as well at the time. I remember when these first came on the market in the late 70's early 80's they were common place in Europe, even found examples in flee markets in Frankfurt, the story was they had come from Czechoslovakia.

Greg is right some believe these are real, but the pattern does not match other oakleaf patterns so i will ask this question,

1)Have you ever seen a zeltbann made from this material?
cheers,
gary

[Mike C]

I must say that I am a sceptic as well - but in any case, until period photos are found, these smocks will not find broad acceptance in the community and their value will reflect this. Better (IMHO) to buy an unquestionable piece than take a chance.

Mike

[phild]

Jeremy,
I guess I will jump in the fire and say ..I do believe these so called "pink" smocks are real. I am one of the few..if any on this forum who does believe this and really have no proof to give you to substantiate my feelings other than the history of where the majority of these smocks came from and how they became shuned. I know major collectors who have these in their collections..and feel good about them. The pedigree of mine goes back to the 80's thru several collector/dealers. Other than the off color of these smocks(against known originals) the constuction and feel of the smock is what I look for and compare to other smocks. I have had access to numerous smocks in a large collection and have compared mine to those in the collection and I am confident that it is correct and to have it in my collection. I know it is not your prototypical smock..One has to deal with that when confronting the smock guru's who poo-poo these. It is like the round cornered KC's that have been debated in the other forums...you either believe or don't believe. It will always come to that when having something in your collection. If you paid a lot of money for the item and are not sure..then let it go..but if you got it at a reasonable price..then keep it.


Greg

Greg

I'm with Greg on his feelings about these. I was there when these came into Germany and I have examined a fair number both then and since. Many were rodent eaten, otherwise storage damaged, and many have the inventory marks in the pockets that we since (about eight years later) came to reconize as legit for real German goods stored by Cz. Some of the ones that I have examined have the printing errors John mentions and as 82nd remarked they are no "pinker" than many of the examples in Beavor's reference. One thing is a fact and that is the "right" dealers did not get in on the ground floor of these.

[Fritz]

Yes, this is a known fake. What most of the others told you regarding its origin is also what I heard often...

Many have been brought to the US by US soldiers who have been in Germany during the 80's....I believe they were offered as renanectment items back then.
They are easily to detect by there very unique pattern (especialy the color).

[Robert Noss]

Hi to all,

it is true that I made a comparison about the pink-smock some time ago at GDC.
I found the pics again.

First is another pink-smock:



Next is part of an Oak Leaf Shelter Quarter. This specimen is a "destroyed" shelter quarter I still have kept for comparison.
Note the number 1 indicates where the pattern starts to repeat itself.
Keep in mind the 2 and 3 for further comparison.



On the following picture you will see the same section on the pink-smock.
Compare 2 and 3 ! They are completely different !
Question: This pattern was printed with rolls. If the same rolls were used always again, the pattern should always be the same too, right ?
If pink is a variation, in my opinion - there should be no matching points, they would have used a different roll and it is not logic that parts are the same and other parts not.



Another match and mis-match section :



See the match of both patterns where I made the yellow lines.
The part in the circle is missing on the original shelter quarter.

My conclusion and my personal opinion is that the pink smock is a reproduction.
I also have seen them turning up in the early 80ties. I have also heard a lot of stories from old czech stocks. At about 1990 the stories changed to russian stocks, russian museums etc. etc.

IF they are original -- why are there so many of them ?
IF they came out of a depot from eastern countries -- why have we never seen only ONE single specimen of this "variant" before ??
WHY have I never seen a shelter quarter of this pattern ? I have had 20 different shelter quarters in my earlier collection and have handled about another 30 of them. NONE of them looked the same. You always can see differences even when the same pattern is used, but they differ in color, sometimes even in construction - BUT Oak-Leaf is Oak-Leaf - the pattern itself is always the same down to the smallest spot.
I have had 8 original smocks in my earlier collection. None of them looked the same. All were different. Smocks are a very unique thing. That is caused by the kind they manufactured them. They used surplus-material for the cuffs, the collar parts, the pocket-flaps. That makes every smock a unique item.
Even today I could recognize every smock that I possesed once in a while.

These pink smocks all look the same. And even after 20+ years after they turned up on the market there are still many of them going around.

My opinion - they are fakes. Maybe made for reenactment back in the 80ties, but more likely one of the first attempts to fool collectors and make the big money with a large quantity of reproductions.

Kind regards
Robert

[Fritz]

I think that there was a big US dealer that sold several of these as reenactment item some years ago. For me there is no doubt that these are fake...

Well explained Robert

[Robert Noss]

A few more words about Oak Leaf A patterns.

Next photo shows a smock which is also a bit different in its colors:



But You can see where the red 1 and 2 is, that there is again a match to the Oak A shelter quarter from my previous posting:



What I want to make clear is, that there may be differences in color but not in shape.

Kind regards
Robert

[Basil]

You could buy the 'pink' smocks in Germany in the early 80s for £70 or so, and a lot of re-enactors did. I don't think they were originally intended to fool anyone but that is what has inevitably happened.