M44/M45 SS dot pattern tunic

[Thorsten B.]

The material is original, but this jacket was made post-war. Look at the two different size collar points, squared pocket corners like a KM jacket (NOT SS), lack of interior details, lack of cuff features and load bearing holes - and the whole thing was built at the same time with all buttonholes hand-sewn with the same brown thread.

In other words, it wasn't a cut-down anything: if it was originally even a damaged M44, it would have had factory buttonholes and standard SS patch pockets. This has the same brown thread on all buttonholes - so all the buttonhole machines broke at the factory that day? They could sew sleeves and collars, just not simplified buttonholes like on late M43 caps or sleeve closures, which are a simple zig-zag stitch?

Stamps mean factory production, so besides the weird placement on this "factory" piece, anyone want to take a stab at seeing if the measurements (too many for a M44) match any of the actual garment lengths?

I have 1945 SS tunics that are last ditch - but they still followed basic design features for their intended designs.

This is a nice piece of butchered material, IMO, that was intended to serve as a basic garment after 1945. Probably salvaged from factory scraps and sewn together by someone who knew how to secure a collar, but didn't care to make it look like a uniform.

s/f Robert

Thank you for your shared opinion.

I have in mind a pic from December 1944 showing two captured SS-"soldiers" (17 years if not younger) and one has no proper shoes - hardly shoes at all - and the other one not a belt but a simple kind of ribbon to keep his pants in place.
Just one example how short they were with "official" supplies within the Ardennen-Offensive - and still half a year to come before the war was over.

As of yet I am not convinced that this piece was made post-war.

[hunmilitaria]

I think in 1945 used a lot of not "official" uniforms! I spoke with some soldiers and SS soldiers and they said in 1945 got and used sometime not official uniforms, equipments.

They used what they found or what they got.
So I think this can be 1945M transformed uniform.

Thank you for your shared opinion.

I have in mind a pic from December 1944 showing two captured SS-"soldiers" (17 years if not younger) and one has no proper shoes - hardly shoes at all - and the other one not a belt but a simple kind of ribbon to keep his pants in place.
Just one example how short they were with "official" supplies within the Ardennen-Offensive - and still half a year to come before the war was over.

As of yet I am not convinced that this piece was made post-war.

[Fritz]

What kind of argument is this??

That´s a joke!

I like this piece as well and for what it´s worth we look at an extremely rare period piece of SS camo cloth.

A very valid one. But since you know zilch about ss camo and still have the nerve to pump yourself up to something you are not I am not gonna care.


Cheers

[Fritz]

In other words, it wasn't a cut-down anything:

I believe this may have been a wrapper rather than a 4 pocket tunic.

Cheers

[Thorsten B.]

A very valid one. But since you know zilch about ss camo and still have the nerve to pump yourself up to something you are not I am not gonna care.

This second shared "expertise" of yours appears to be almost as much convincing as your first one - and apart from your guess that "for an item worn by a soldier or POW the condition is too good" you do not even focus on the piece in question - not at all.

That is ridiculous.

[Fritz]

This second shared "expertise" of yours appears to be almost as much convincing as your first one - and apart from your guess that "for an item worn by a soldier or POW the condition is too good" you do not even focus on the piece in question - not at all.

That is ridiculous.

Welcome to my ignore list

[Thorsten B.]

Welcome to my ignore list

Aha - the expert has spoken wise words again...

Still an original and very rare SS camo piece for me.

[n160]

43/68 on the left is normal SS torso/ back length for a 4 pocket (not Pz).
Looks like a tailor made jacket of some sort- but the one piece back shows that it wasn't made from a 4 pocket tunic. The maker obviously had full width fabric. So...who knows.

[kammo man]

The fabric stinks to high heaven of a paratrooper cloth item.
This fabric as I assume you all know is completely different from all others in the inventory.
From the first time I saw this it planted a worm in my head about cloth types and got me thinking !

[Fritz]

43/68 on the left is normal SS torso/ back length for a 4 pocket (not Pz).
Looks like a tailor made jacket of some sort- but the one piece back shows that it wasn't made from a 4 pocket tunic. The maker obviously had full width fabric. So...who knows.

I can only make out the numbers to the right which would indicate the neck size (42) and arm length (66)

The number at bottom left (full back length) would be of great interest, my speculation is 58.

Exactly the one piece back, no split cuffs (sleeves could have been shortened, yes), position of stamp the need for handsewn button holes and so on make me believe that this used to be a twill wrapper. Of course the item was heavily reworked.

Also: I believe that at least two different prints were used in making that item + the HBT material used. Which is uncommon for fully privately made items of that type (don't confuse this with items that were made from zelts etc.).

There are other aspects, which I am not going to share here, that are consistent with factory made items and a private tailor would not care for.

To me that was a wrapper. - Albeit heavily mutilated.

Cheers

[Turi]

[QUOTE=Fritz;6599303]
Also: I believe that at least two different prints were used in making that item + the HBT material used. Which is uncommon for fully privately made items of that type (don't confuse this with items that were made from zelts etc.).

There are other aspects, which I am not going to share here, that are consistent with factory made items and a private tailor would not care for.

To me that was a wrapper. - Albeit heavily mutilated.

Hello Fritz,

so the question arising is, why making at factory level an m45 from at least one wrapper, if not two different garments? fabric shows still vibrant colours in both hbt and twill, maybe recycle from battle damage?

very interesting and informative thread, and fascinating example

kind regards,

Salvatore

[Fritz]

[QUOTE=Turi;6599328]

Also: I believe that at least two different prints were used in making that item + the HBT material used. Which is uncommon for fully privately made items of that type (don't confuse this with items that were made from zelts etc.).

There are other aspects, which I am not going to share here, that are consistent with factory made items and a private tailor would not care for.

To me that was a wrapper. - Albeit heavily mutilated.

Hello Fritz,

so the question arising is, why making at factory level an m45 from at least one wrapper, if not two different garments? fabric shows still vibrant colours in both hbt and twill, maybe recycle from battle damage?

very interesting and informative thread, and fascinating example

kind regards,

Salvatore

Hello Salvatore:

No, I don't think it is a factory made "M45 like" item. I think it was a factory made wrapper turned into what we are now looking at - most likely postwar.

When I refer to factory standards in the production of that item it is in regard to it once having been a wrapper. It was suggested that the basis of this was also made postwar and has never been an(y) original dot item - I don't think so.

The modification, that resulted in what we can see here, was not performed at a factory and was done postwar IMO.

In short, IMO, an original twill wrapper turned into an "M45-like-item" - postwar. The modifications the item underwent are, overall, not in conjunction with factory standards.

Cheers

[Thorsten B.]

[QUOTE=Fritz;6599340]

Hello Salvatore:

No, I don't think it is a factory made "M45 like" item. I think it was a factory made wrapper turned into what we are now looking at - most likely postwar.

When I refer to factory standards in the production of that item it is in regard to it once having been a wrapper. It was suggested that the basis of this was also made postwar and has never been an(y) original dot item - I don't think so.

The modification, that resulted in what we can see here, was not performed at a factory and was done postwar IMO.

In short, IMO, an original twill wrapper turned into an "M45-like-item" - postwar. The modifications the item underwent are, overall, not in conjunction with factory standards.

Cheers

To make it short:

Postwar is your guess - nothing more and nothing less.

With all your expert knowledge - which you won´t share here.. - you are NOT able to condemn this specific SS camo piece as postwar.

In NO way.

[B. N. Singer]

...I think it was a factory made wrapper turned into what we are now looking at...

Cheers

Post #4 appears to show some “olive green” thread, which to me is in a stitch pattern indicative of a wraparound.

B. N. Singer

[Fritz]

Post #4 appears to show some “olive green” thread, which to me is in a stitch pattern indicative of a wraparound.

B. N. Singer

Yes, absolutely. Have a 2nd look at that photo in order to find something else. Also photo 2 in post 3.


Cheers