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**Donald Abenheim** · 12-30-2004, 03:34 PM

Glueck u. Unglueck

Originally posted by Robin Lumsden

I think we all have to resign ourselves to the fact that we'll never know the answers to some of the questions posed about these badges, their makers, casting v. striking, etc. etc.

We should just be happy with what we have.

Life's too short to get stressed out about what should be an enjoyable hobby.

Dear Colleague, You're quite right and such Scot-ish practicality and common sense are otherwise too often missing here. Nonetheless, if I lived in Germany again, I am sure that somewhere there I could find files with some hint as to these things. I was shocked by the other RZM Lieferant stuff shown to me by a countryman of yours. The CR Davis book of 1975 has specifications for these things, as do the 1936 RZM Herstellungsvorschriften. Of course, these were only the specifications and do not comprise the whole of reality. Damit basta! Viel Sammlerglueck!

**SScollector** · 12-30-2004, 05:28 PM

Mr. Marsh, I don't think anyone cares about all of the nonsense
that you said about me.

I will of course, admit that I was wrong about the M1/17 eagles,
(Duh, I thought that was pretty obvious.)
Where did you get the idea that I think I cannot make a mistake?

Also, please don't say that I do not admit to my mistakes,
because I always admit to my mistakes.
I am no God, so please don't try to insult me, unless
you can prove me wrong or back up anything that you say.
Everything you said in your last post is just the typical rambling nonsense
of people that get upset with me because I say a piece is fake
when they know I am right. Well, that's just too bad.

Why don't you start insulting Gary for a while?
He said the eagle is looks like a fake. I guess that makes him a loser in your opinion too.
Well, I guess I've made my point. Some people never stop with the BS.
They take a mistake and use it to attack those who they envy.
However, you will NEVER dampen my spirit to post my opinions on these forums, no matter what you say.

Best, Chris

**Sayle F** · 12-30-2004, 07:22 PM

Comon Guys lets not get the kid upset. Can't we all just get along

**craig a. thomas jr** · 12-30-2004, 07:43 PM

Finally...

"However, you will NEVER dampen my spirit to post my opinions on these forums, no matter what you say". -- Chris McClurkan

Again, Thank you all for your "opinion".

Enough said, as I knew contributors would turn this into a p--ssing match, as this thread demonstrates what has been eating at me for some time now (as I am sure it has with others). I found over the past 2-3 years the several contributors/collectors always chiming emphatically able to pick out the obviously bad repro’s, and then over time I have seen them become regarded as an expert or authority here and in other forums. However, in the same breath with the items that are not clearly a reproduction, the same contributors then chime in “opinions”. These same individuals rarely posting pictures of their own collection, referencing material or prior threads/postings to back up their own opinion, (please research this fact as I have).
<O

Prior to the recent trend Bob Hritz, Rick Turner, John Pic and several others (who several of which no longer post here due to bickering (but we know they are lurking

)) were posting their educated opinions at one point accompanied by with supporting pictures, referencing material from their collection, or prior threads. In doing this they were not only backing up what they are saying, but were also educating the forum. Doing this in a non-condensending way with tact. These same individuals would also give the “pat-on-the-back” for the contributor as well, thanking them for the posting their item. This "recent turn" of opinionated contributions, backed with no "physical/documented" reference for statements is negative for this hobby, often discouraging collectors from participating in from this “elite” section of the hobby or the hobby at all. Opinions have always contributed to non-productive bickering and finger pointing threads, just as this has turned into. This is very disturbing, as non-members, “lurking” members, and none regular contributors are less willing to post their items/collections in fear of getting the OPINION treatment from the “experts” that contribute to this forum, rather than factual contributions. If you don't believe this look at the views, and the amount of members that have contributed.<O

</O

<O

What happened to constructive contributions? And no… I don’t consider myself an expert or an authority...but I do know when to keep my opinion to myself not being and expert or authority. However, I look forward to seeing Chris' book on SS Visor Insignia, as that would make him an authority/expert putting his reputation as an expert in the public documented/published domain, rather a internet forum. As long as the book doesn't start with "In my opinion...", I know I will be one of the first to purchase it...should it ever be published.

Best to all, and Happy New Year.
Craig

**Jarrid Marsh** · 12-30-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by SScollector

Mr. Marsh, I don't think anyone cares about all of the nonsense
that you said about me.

I will of course, admit that I was wrong about the M1/17 eagles,
(Duh, I thought that was pretty obvious.)
Where did you get the idea that I think I cannot make a mistake?

Also, please don't say that I do not admit to my mistakes,
because I always admit to my mistakes.
I am no God, so please don't try to insult me, unless
you can prove me wrong or back up anything that you say.
Everything you said in your last post is just the typical rambling nonsense
of people that get upset with me because I say a piece is fake
when they know I am right. Well, that's just too bad.

Why don't you start insulting Gary for a while?
He said the eagle is looks like a fake. I guess that makes him a loser in your opinion too.
Well, I guess I've made my point. Some people never stop with the BS.
They take a mistake and use it to attack those who they envy.
However, you will NEVER dampen my spirit to post my opinions on these forums, no matter what you say.

Best, Chris

Chris,

I apologize if you misread the intent of my post, but I certainly did not refer to you as a loser and believe I gave you credit in your pursuits and for your research.

The problem I see is the same as addressed by many, in which there does not seem to be any large amount of data on these items to come to a full conclusion other than to study and speculate as to whats correct and whats not. Obviously there are fakes out there, but I dont see enough info to come to a formal conclusion.

I dont want a pi**ing contest with anyone, but I am a firm believer that if you come in and beat up someones wares then you should state a reason, or dont beat them up.

Time and time again you do it, and when asked for an answer as to why you give excuses.

Now after bashing a whole line of manufacture as totally fake, you come in and say " well oooopppss my friends just got some from vet purchases" this is great but your initial confident and unwavering statements said otherwise, so what makes this post different now?.

I mean honestly you learned something after jumping the gun and now a different opinion, a year from now what will happen when this gent with the cap in this post finds out that they are in fact correct because your buddys found one just like it direct from the vet?.

Dont mistake my sarastic response for a personal attack as that was not my intention, the intention was to point out that mistakes are made, but you were very sure of yourself then and you are not now, this is after attacking skull insignia across the entire spectrum of forums as fake without any explanation, and then met with no explanation as to why or attacked with the line "You prove thier right" This is arrogance.

Lighten up.

Jarrid

**SScollector** · 12-30-2004, 09:46 PM

Well, first of all, the M1/17 eagle debate has nothing to do with these cast eBay skulls with incorrect pins and incorrect material. I will not change my mind and decide later, that these are real, as I have with the M1/17 eagles.
I do not change my mind often.

Also, I am not the one who started the controversy of the M1/17 eagles.
It is a debate that has been going on these forums for quite sometime and I stated before, that it is possible that they are real, but that I doubted it because of some differences from the 155 marked Assmann eagles and due to the fact that someone told me that they were known to be old fakes. Anyway, I did not say that they are absolutely all fake, or that there is no possibility that any could be real, etc.

I asked Craig to post a better picture of the front of the skull, so that I can give you the proof that you ask for, but I cannot do so, without a better pic.
So, where is the pic?

Best, Chris

**dav71** · 01-11-2005, 11:22 AM

therefore.........

[QUOTE=SScollector]EVERY GOOD TYPE AND GOOD MARKING VARIATION HAS BEEN FAKED!

my ss eagle marked SS 473/43 is a fake????

**SScollector** · 01-11-2005, 07:23 PM

Yes, I agree with what was said by the others, in that I do not
believe that there were originals with those markings.
These are well known reproductions.

We've all felt that disappointment when finding out that a piece we treasure,
turns out to be a fake. It hurts, but don't let it keep you down.
It is knowledge that you have paid for. Better luck next time!

Best, Chris

**Bob Coleman** · 01-11-2005, 08:39 PM

One of the most interesting evolvements of this thread is how the only thing being discussed is the insignia. Robin stated that some times original hats are rebadged with reproduction insignia. I would like to also add that sometimes high end reproduction hats are badged with reproduction insignia. From the images posted, I cannot make any definitive statement on this hat. I will say that it is reminiscent of high quality hats made about eight years ago in the Czech Republic and imported in to this country by an Euroean dealer noted for handling high end fakes. I have seen two hats from this source with the same trademark. Does it make this hat a reproduction? As I stated, a hands on examinaion would go a long way for me with regards to the integrity of this piece. I might suggest checking the weight of this hat against a known original period visor cap. The Czech high end fakes are noticably heavier than a period hats
I know of no collector who was present when either original period hats were made or the current fakes. The facts of collecting today are based upon knowlege of undoubtedly original material and then comparing these aginst suspected fakes. In today's mine field of collecting, one must proceed with the utmost caution. Closing one's ears to the advise of respected, knowledgable collectors can be costly.
Bob

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