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**Donald Abenheim** · 12-29-2004, 06:09 PM

Zimmermann finishes

Originally posted by SScollector

Donald, there were several different finishes used on the early Zimmermann SS insignias, including silver plating, matte aluminum finish, and some were refinished late war, with the silver gray paint.

Sayle, all of your pieces that you posted here look good from what I can tell.

You should all look at this thread:

http://www.************************/...showtopic=6933

Best, Chris

Many thanks for your wise analysis and the update to your findings. Your observations accord with mine. I had so many pieces of insignia in the 1970s, which I discarded stupidly....they used to be fifteen dollars or less a set.

**SScollector** · 12-29-2004, 06:20 PM

Well, I can't get the website link to work.
You can PM me if you want the link.

Of course all M1/17 eagles are not real, but some are.
I know that was a big hot debate, but now we have the answer.

Best, Chris

**Jarrid Marsh** · 12-29-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by SScollector

Well, I can't get the website link to work.

It is: ************************ (just add the www.)

Of course all M1/17 eagles are not real, but some are.
I know that was a big hot debate, but now we have the answer.

Best, Chris

Ok, which are correct and which are not?

**SScollector** · 12-29-2004, 06:30 PM

I can't explain at this time.
I will work on this in the near future and provide pics as soon as I acquire one.
They have basically the same characteristics of all the other real SS eagles,
material, finishes, pins, etc. and I believe that they are of the same front side die as the 155/36 marked eagles.

Best, Chris

**craig a. thomas jr** · 12-29-2004, 07:18 PM

Chris,

Question: "...round pins that do not have the nail tips, means FAKE" according to who? I have seen authentic eagles and skulls with different cuts on the ends, so your theory here I would think doesn't hold water, as you would have to believe only one/several batchs was produced with a pointed tip and methods of cut were not changed some time during production?

Other 254's? There are only 3 images, of which you produced 2 of them, which you are now calling reproductions. As Donald has said, "...had so many pieces of insignia in the 1970s, which I discarded stupidly....they used to be fifteen dollars or less a set." Donald, how many do you feel were authentic according the Hoyle now that were discarded at this point due to opinions, not factual documentation?

As to the "Poor" casting...details appear very good to me in hand matching not only Mr. Hritz's GD contribution, at this time only 1 (Sayle's) front has been presented in this thread other than mine, which again looks exactly like mine (patina being the difference) as far as detail and clarity of cut. ("Sayle, all of your pieces that you posted here look good from what I can tell." -Donald Abenheim). So again opinion you have made from image from an older HP ScanJet II... that I am afraid is still opinion. (I am now trying to borrow a camera from a friend who has better focus abilities to post better front pictures of this skull...this to document this skull at least the front.) And comparing to one accepted original I think is ludicris, and closed minded, that is exactly why I have asked for more proof.

I have not implied RZM makers have not been reproduced. It is very obvious as well as common sence that "EVERY GOOD TYPE AND GOOD MARKING VARIATION HAS BEEN FAKED!", however the none of forums have documented any updates for quite some time. Should you want to "update" the world with your updated knowledge on SS Visor Insignia, I suggest a new thread, as this thread is realitive to the M1/72 and the 254/42, as other numbers will confuse the issue at hand.

The GD thread being "very old", almost a year old....??? Chris, you are taking an assumed roll that you of an authority and expert in SS Visor insignia... So again, I ask for PROOF, as the proof you present seems to lack documentation both photographic and text, to make the calls you are making. Provide documentation...period...experts do that as a matter of fact (Book,Page, Document, Photograph), they do not provide opinion. You seem to reference friends, making RZM #'s authentic. I personally cannot condone "un-named friends" making authenticity calls, or are these friends a from a group like the "SKULL & BONES" (yes...pun intended)?

I await further documented and photographic proof...

, off to Walmart with the better half...

Regards,
Craig

**SScollector** · 12-29-2004, 07:56 PM

Craig, I couldn't care less if you believe anything I say or not.
I have done my homework and I don't have to prove anything to you.
Let's see your documentation.

You are the only one who has the ability to prove your piece.
All you have to do, is post a good picture of the front of the skull for the other forum members that need to see better pics, if you want more opinions.

Also, I did an updated thread on skulls, but I can't post the link
here for some reason.

Best, Chris

**Donald Abenheim** · 12-29-2004, 08:49 PM

Discarded insignia

Originally posted by craig a. thomas jr

Chris,

Question: "...round pins that do not have the nail tips, means FAKE" according to who? I have seen authentic eagles and skulls with different cuts on the ends, so your theory here I would think doesn't hold water, as you would have to believe only one/several batchs was produced with a pointed tip and methods of cut were not changed some time during production?

Other 254's? There are only 3 images, of which you produced 2 of them, which you are now calling reproductions. As Donald has said, "...had so many pieces of insignia in the 1970s, which I discarded stupidly....they used to be fifteen dollars or less a set." Donald, how many do you feel were authentic according the Hoyle now that were discarded at this point due to opinions, not factual documentation?

As to the "Poor" casting...details appear very good to me in hand matching not only Mr. Hritz's GD contribution, at this time only 1 (Sayle's) front has been presented in this thread other than mine, which again looks exactly like mine (patina being the difference) as far as detail and clarity of cut. ("Sayle, all of your pieces that you posted here look good from what I can tell." -Donald Abenheim). So again opinion you have made from image from an older HP ScanJet II... that I am afraid is still opinion. (I am now trying to borrow a camera from a friend who has better focus abilities to post better front pictures of this skull...this to document this skull at least the front.) And comparing to one accepted original I think is ludicris, and closed minded, that is exactly why I have asked for more proof.

I have not implied RZM makers have not been reproduced. It is very obvious as well as common sence that "EVERY GOOD TYPE AND GOOD MARKING VARIATION HAS BEEN FAKED!", however the none of forums have documented any updates for quite some time. Should you want to "update" the world with your updated knowledge on SS Visor Insignia, I suggest a new thread, as this thread is realitive to the M1/72 and the 254/42, as other numbers will confuse the issue at hand.

The GD thread being "very old", almost a year old....??? Chris, you are taking an assumed roll that you of an authority and expert in SS Visor insignia... So again, I ask for PROOF, as the proof you present seems to lack documentation both photographic and text, to make the calls you are making. Provide documentation...period...experts do that as a matter of fact (Book,Page, Document, Photograph), they do not provide opinion. You seem to reference friends, making RZM #'s authentic. I personally cannot condone "un-named friends" making authenticity calls, or are these friends a from a group like the "SKULL & BONES" (yes...pun intended)?

I await further documented and photographic proof...

, off to Walmart with the better half...

Regards,
Craig

Point of information: I discarded nothing because I believed it to be fake. I stopped collecting SS material for awhile and sold off my collection--which was a horrible mistake. Ergo, I discarded material, all of which, at the time, I believed to be authentic. The fakes were of poor quality in the 1960s and 1970s, and authentic insignia was much easier to find than it is today. The sole sources of reliable knowledge was the re-print of the Assmann catalog and the CR Davis book on the RZM. Beyond these works, there was no documentation of fact in these arcane, misunderstood details. The whole fake infrastructure was quite modest in comparison to today and all of this cost a pittance in comparison to today, as well. The market was trans-Atlantic in a way, but everything moved slowly and there was plentiful authentic material, although SS stuff was always scarce. I see myself quoted above in a context that I can no longer recall. Let me say that an opinion here without a hand's on inspection is subjective and should be treated as such. The range of experience among us varies quite widely and each person has to decide what said experience really means. In any case, one would do well to reflect on the definition of fact embodied in these postings versus what I would consider to be the definition of fact as an historian; that is, documentary proof (a file of papers from a contractor with a specifications of badges, a Muster or Probe of same (i.e.pattern), a description of the method of manufacture, &c in a reliable context....I have seen such things for cloth insignia in real life in the hands of a noted British collector of RZM material....) or the word from someone from Deschler & Soehne that, yes, indeed this is what our regalia looked like---the latter is likely too difficult to secure in 2005. I do know that Chris McClurkan has put some considerable effort into all of this, and I have learned from him, even if I have been at this longer than he. One can often be surprised at the sources of new or revised knowledge.

**Gary Wood** · 12-29-2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by craig a. thomas jr

The M1/72 eagle is the same as Gary Wood's that is posted in this forum except mine has the prongs (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...3&page=4&pp=15 reply #54).

Craig,
your eagle posted above is not the same as the one i posted in that thread the example i posted was an aluminium type yours looks as Chris has said to be a cast example probably of silvered finished brass, sorry,
cheers,
Gary

**Gary Wood** · 12-29-2004, 09:35 PM

here are a couple more fake m1/72 eagles but there are many more as they are copied in many countrys by many different people

cheers,
gary

**Gary Wood** · 12-29-2004, 09:44 PM

and another

**Jarrid Marsh** · 12-30-2004, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by craig a. thomas jr

Chris,

Question: "...round pins that do not have the nail tips, means FAKE" according to who? I have seen authentic eagles and skulls with different cuts on the ends, so your theory here I would think doesn't hold water, as you would have to believe only one/several batchs was produced with a pointed tip and methods of cut were not changed some time during production?

Other 254's? There are only 3 images, of which you produced 2 of them, which you are now calling reproductions. As Donald has said, "...had so many pieces of insignia in the 1970s, which I discarded stupidly....they used to be fifteen dollars or less a set." Donald, how many do you feel were authentic according the Hoyle now that were discarded at this point due to opinions, not factual documentation?

As to the "Poor" casting...details appear very good to me in hand matching not only Mr. Hritz's GD contribution, at this time only 1 (Sayle's) front has been presented in this thread other than mine, which again looks exactly like mine (patina being the difference) as far as detail and clarity of cut. ("Sayle, all of your pieces that you posted here look good from what I can tell." -Donald Abenheim). So again opinion you have made from image from an older HP ScanJet II... that I am afraid is still opinion. (I am now trying to borrow a camera from a friend who has better focus abilities to post better front pictures of this skull...this to document this skull at least the front.) And comparing to one accepted original I think is ludicris, and closed minded, that is exactly why I have asked for more proof.

I have not implied RZM makers have not been reproduced. It is very obvious as well as common sence that "EVERY GOOD TYPE AND GOOD MARKING VARIATION HAS BEEN FAKED!", however the none of forums have documented any updates for quite some time. Should you want to "update" the world with your updated knowledge on SS Visor Insignia, I suggest a new thread, as this thread is realitive to the M1/72 and the 254/42, as other numbers will confuse the issue at hand.

The GD thread being "very old", almost a year old....??? Chris, you are taking an assumed roll that you of an authority and expert in SS Visor insignia... So again, I ask for PROOF, as the proof you present seems to lack documentation both photographic and text, to make the calls you are making. Provide documentation...period...experts do that as a matter of fact (Book,Page, Document, Photograph), they do not provide opinion. You seem to reference friends, making RZM #'s authentic. I personally cannot condone "un-named friends" making authenticity calls, or are these friends a from a group like the "SKULL & BONES" (yes...pun intended)?

I await further documented and photographic proof...

, off to Walmart with the better half...

Regards,
Craig

Criag,

I am no expert on these, and yes sscollector appears to be the authority on them across the world of collecting.

However you cant expect an answer to why thier fake as he wont give one, he never does really. It interesting to note however that now some M1/17 variations are correct, where as before he adamently denied thier existence as real. He may be correct but he could be wrong as well, but it would be interesting to see if he comes back and states the differences with these new correct M1/17s and the fakes he deried before. I think it comes down to attitude really, not to knock the guy as im sure he is good at what he does, but when he comes down off the mountain like Moses and throws his tablets at the masses he expects everyone to bow down to thier knees.

I would really like to hear him say if he ever does that he was wrong on this issue, I doubt this will happen as he is just never wrong.

Mr. Abenheim however believes they are repros if I read his post correctly as well as Mr. Wood, I would not be quick to push it, as it appears that a lot of these insignia were replaced and it just makes sense.

When the god of skull insignia returns, maybe he will enlighten us with some info and maybe even admit he was mistaken, at least on the M/17 issue, but I would not sell anything on his word because as strong as it comes off, it seems to change with the wind.

I misread Mr. Abenheims post, it appears he has made no opinion, Sorry about that.

Jarrid

**Donald Abenheim** · 12-30-2004, 01:15 PM

M1/17 and all that

Originally posted by Jarrid Marsh

Criag,

I am no expert on these, and yes sscollector appears to be the authority on them across the world of collecting.

However you cant expect an answer to why thier fake as he wont give one, he never does really. It interesting to note however that now some M1/17 variations are correct, where as before he adamently denied thier existence as real. He may be correct but he could be wrong as well, but it would be interesting to see if he comes back and states the differences with these new correct M1/17s and the fakes he deried before. I think it comes down to attitude really, not to knock the guy as im sure he is good at what he does, but when he comes down off the mountain like Moses and throws his tablets at the masses he expects everyone to bow down to thier knees.

I would really like to hear him say if he ever does that he was wrong on this issue, I doubt this will happen as he is just never wrong.

Mr. Abenheim however believes they are repros if I read his post correctly as well as Mr. Wood, I would not be quick to push it, as it appears that a lot of these insignia were replaced and it just makes sense.

When the god of skull insignia returns, maybe he will enlighten us with some info and maybe even admit he was mistaken, at least on the M/17 issue, but I would not sell anything on his word because as strong as it comes off, it seems to change with the wind.

I misread Mr. Abenheims post, it appears he has made no opinion, Sorry about that.

Jarrid

I was registering my surprise that figures who had been adamant about the falsity of the Assmann mark M1/17 had now recanted and expressed the belief that the mark was authentic. I have followed this kind of debate with interest and professional skepticism, because it is archaelogical and not really historical as I understand it. It is also far more complicated than even I imagined. We have a conflict of empirical findings, and the role of lists which take on a life of their own. Mr Rick Turner and Mr. Chris McClurkan have both brought considerable energy to the pursuit. Mr. Turner apparently also has great exeprtise in metal working, which is of benefit to this inquiry. Mr. McClurkan has with singular energy sought all known data on these badges in his young career and made some noteworthy discoveries.

What I seek in vain is some documentary evidence that is air tight (i.e. a primary source from the years 1934-1945) if such is possible and such evidence is in Germany or the Czech Republic or Russia or Poland (all where SS files have ended up since 1945....). I repeat: recently, in Vienna I saw advertisements, specifications, and examples of textiles badges for NSDAP organizations from an RZM licensed Hersteller of same. A noted collector had found these in the cast offs of the remaining firm or some other remarkable source. These included collar patches and cuff titles. It would be nice to find similar evidence for the firms that made these cap badges for the SS. It is also likely that said evidence got destroyed in the wake of the war, but such evidence would advance the discussion beyond the circular fights we have here. In any case, hiermit melde ich mich ab, that is, I shall leave this contested ground to others and wish all a guten Rutsch ins neue Jahr!

Postscriptum

I collect NSDAP Jahrbuecher, and have same for the years: 1937, 1938, 1939 and 1943. These contain advertisements of regalia makers for the party (i.e. Assmann) in which prominent mention is made of their various RZM licenses of different kinds. (metal insignia, buttons, field equipment, &c.) It is also striking that these advertisements contain obsolete RZM license # in years in which one would have expected a more current nomenclature for same. Life in Nazi Germany was over regulated to a fault, and it is naive to expect that everything there functioned perfectly as we imagine it in the abstract.

**dhunter93** · 12-30-2004, 01:30 PM

Most militaria is not called into question everytime it's posted, however SS items are so valuable and desirable that people have been faking them for decades. It is very hard to tell what is real and what is not. That being said , I looked at a fake SS visor cap that I have. The eagle and skull are very close to the one that is posted

. Look at the cap, it looks virtually unworn. Does it look like 65 year old wool? look at the colors, faded? soiled? look at the sweatband, mighty clean. I think it is strange that all of the SS items I see are always in near new condition, didnt any of the SS use their gear?

We all know what we would buy and what we would walk away from, if it's SS I would need to know who I was buying the piece from and where it came from, because so much is fake I would hate to get screwed .

**John Pic** · 12-30-2004, 02:17 PM

Lots more to learn about these,I know I cant tell except with the pic Gary posted if something is cast or struck. The "Skull God" was an overnight expert who like many became inflamed when his opinion was questioned and left collecting almost as soon as he started. He owned one SS visor cap and a small collection of insignias.His research was done in a brief period and was very good I would say by the results but not exhaustive.These debates will go on and on unless the evidence Donald seeks is found.

**Robin Lumsden** · 12-30-2004, 02:27 PM

I think we all have to resign ourselves to the fact that we'll never know the answers to some of the questions posed about these badges, their makers, casting v. striking, etc. etc.

We should just be happy with what we have.

Life's too short to get stressed out about what should be an enjoyable hobby.

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