Where did you get the cap?
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"Activity! Activity! Speed! I greet you."
-Napoleon to Massena, advancing on Landshut, April 18, 1809
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Chris is a sharp guy when it comes to these,but I dont see how it was determined they were cast copies by the picture shown.Comment
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Facts or Opinion
Thank you to those who are airing what appears to be unfounded opinions. However, I asked for facts, and not opinions, as it has been proven time and time again that opinions always reflect personal preferences of the individual, rarely supported with facts. However, I can and will accept facts.
So Again, I ask (now that authenticity has been questioned):
1.Forum contributors to please post accepted documented originals of these RZM numbers, and more importantly, if 2 or 3 members to do so thus establishing fact.
2.Are these (M1/72 & 254/42) RZM numbers being reproduced now? Because if they are being reproduced, this forums accomplished contributors, as well as others forums have NOT acknowledged this fact, which I find hard to believe.
BTW, Chris, are you the same Chris posting in the GD Forum? If so, please refer to the 3rd page of this GD posting of the same RZM 254/42. Please note the RZM numbers are the same style and position. Robin please note the pins are the same cut and style of the accepted "good" one posted by Chris McClurkan. Then later in the thread, dismissing it as a possible reproduction, with no shared views as reproduction.
Where are the factual replies, as I have contributed Facts, not Opinion. Please I don't want this made into a p---ing match as many threads in this forum turn into.
John, Thank you for your input, as usual concise and to the point.
CraigLast edited by craig a. thomas jr; 12-29-2004, 05:20 PM.Comment
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List of know Factual manufacturers of SS Cap Skull and Eagle insignia:
Deschler & Sohn:
Eagle: RZM M1/52
Skull: RSM D.S.M Ges.Gesch., RZM 52, RZM M1/52, RZM 254/42
Fritz Zimmerman:
Eagle: RZM M1/72, RZM SS 499/42 M1/72
Skull: RZM 499/41
E.W. Assmann & Sohne:
Eagle: RZM SS 155/36
Skull: Ges. Gesch.
Overhoff & Cie:
Eagle: None recognized
Skull: RZM M1/24, S.P. 40
Augustin Hicke:
Eagle: RZM M1/167
Skull: None recognized
List on known reproduction numbers of SS Cap Eagles and Skulls:
M5/8
M1/17
M1/25
M1/52 (also a good number used on originals)
M1/122
M1/163
M1/172
360/42,43 & 44
373/43
380/40
460/??
475/39,42 & 43
499/41 (also a good number used on originals)
Any to add or subtract to this list?
Regards,
CraigComment
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Ok here are my 2 cents. They do reproduce M1/72 eagles that is for sure, From the picture you posted It may or may not be original. All Of the m1/72 eagles I have had do have different prong attachments, but the type yours has Is correct also. As for the skull I have only one 254/42 skull and I took it off my visor once. The difference I did notice is that the pins on mine were like nails coming to a point. The prongs on your skull are angle cut. So without closer examination I would not be able to tell if either one of your insignia is bad or not. attached are a couple pics.Comment
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here is a m1/72 eagleComment
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3 prongs, marked m1/72 upper left and rzm on the upper rightLast edited by Sayle F; 12-29-2004, 05:25 PM.Comment
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Here is another one but with 2 prongs, markings are the same though.Comment
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rear shotComment
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Yes, I am the same Chris McClurkan, (I think).
OK, first of all, that GD thread is very old, (I think it was the first major
skull discussion ever), and I have learned a lot since then.
Several skulls that are posted as originals on that thread are fake.
Craig, of course every good marking has been faked.
I can't believe that anyone would think that they haven't.
EVERY GOOD TYPE AND GOOD MARKING VARIATION HAS BEEN FAKED!
Craig, look at your 254/42 skull and the other 254's that are posted on that GD thread and you will notice that on most of them,
the ends of the round pins are cut off at one angle, instead of being sharpened like nails, (I think Bob Hritz posted his original
254/42 skull in this thread, so you can compare them with his).
Anyway, round pins that do not have the nail tips, means FAKE.
Trust me, that skull is a very bad casting anyway.
Not even close.
Best, ChrisComment
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Well, it seems that Sayle already mentioned the nail pins before I got finished typing.
Also, S.P.40 is not Overhoff. That was one of my early and silly theories.
One more thing, M1/17, M1/8 and 394/35 are 100% proper markings for SS eagles.
I just learned that M1/17 is in fact proper, as two friends of mine have confirmed that they have acquired them from vets.
Best, ChrisComment
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Zimmermann badges
The Zimmermann Hoheitszeichen I have seen (of the era 1937-1940, I think judging from the caps they have been on...) are most like the last image with this finish. I must say that I have looked at a Zimmermann badge similar to that on the artillery cap and felt unwell about its originality because I thought it to be cast..but I am no expert on manufacturing processes. I do think the cap itself shows signs of authenticity especially as regards its interior appointments, (recall I did say that C. Wagner made black SS caps so why not grey ones...) which is crucial in these things, since the caps are more difficult to find than insignia and I should think that that 33%-55% of all cases of SS caps I have seen since 1967, the badges have been fiddled with. In fact, many German caps I have seen in Germany in a natural state have generally been denazified, and I have been looking since the early 1970s.Originally posted by Sayle F
Apropos facts (i.e. which is to say that withstand professional scholarly scrutiny) I have never seen a primary document from the SS, the WVHA or the RZM in which cap insignia and RZM Erlaubnisnummer or VA contract # are detailed. Mollo has some details as regards cloth insignia in vol. 6, but I would surely like to see photocopies of some official publication, contracting correspondence, company correspondence, or the like. That is, where is the document from the contracting official to the contractor to the effect that x# of badges are sought at XRM per XXX? If I have missed same, please enlighten me. The lists that circulate here are empirical reconstructions based on consensus among leading collectors, but this is more than a league away from documentary evidence. There is also a great need overall to know how the VA contracting system worked and the meaning of the # for given pieces of regalia. Quellenkunde is an important part of historical study in Germany and the subject of grey SS headgear causes so much heartache that all concerned should be analytical. In my experience of these things, the Deschler skull with the VA contract # are quite rare.Comment
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Donnerwetter!
This is a revolution, actually. One lives and learns and at the risk of being highly pedantic, this also proves my point about the limits of empiricism. Now the lists have to be amended and someone in Europe has to find the contracting correspondence between RZM, VA and all these regalia makers. I have examined a 394/35 badge on a wonderful, early Clemens Wagner cap, where one could easily see that the cap had the 1929 eagle badge and Hussarentotenkopf. Does anyone have an image of a legit M1/17 SS Hoheitszeichen? Vielen Dank. Postscriptum. I wish I could somehow magically go back to the moment when the Assmann catalog was made and flip over the badges. One can see in some of the pieces the early method of marking. Oh, das wirst Du nie wissen....Originally posted by SScollectorLast edited by Donald Abenheim; 12-29-2004, 06:06 PM.Comment
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Donald, there were several different finishes used on the early Zimmermann SS insignias, including silver plating, matte aluminum finish, and some were refinished late war, with the silver gray paint.
Sayle, all of your pieces that you posted here look good from what I can tell.
You all should read through the pinned skull thread at the top of the "The SS"
forum on this website, where you can see most of my examples and much information on the subject:
www.************************
Best, ChrisLast edited by SScollector; 12-29-2004, 06:12 PM.Comment
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Chris,Originally posted by SScollector
Ok, now all M1/17 insignia are correct? There was quite a bit of a hassle over this a year or so ago, I just to make sure I understand your post.
JarridComment
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