SS stickpin opinions

[J. Wraith]

No way! Considered "reproductions" by who?

The market does not and has not recognized the raised letter hoffs for some time, the issue has been discussed on waf before. I would reccomend search of the forum and you will find some. Issues include font styles, enamel, etc. They are believed to be post war. They are just not consistent in manufacture.
You could most likely find a piece that is impressed somewhere close in number to the raised and then it gets interesting. Number fonts, backplates, etc.

[Gary Symonds]

The market does not and has not recognized the raised letter hoffs for some time, the issue has been discussed on waf before. I would reccomend search of the forum and you will find some. Issues include font styles, enamel, etc. They are believed to be post war. They are just not consistent in manufacture.
You could most likely find a piece that is impressed somewhere close in number to the raised and then it gets interesting. Number fonts, backplates, etc.

Please post a link. I guess my computer skills are slim, because I cannot seem to find the evidence you claim is there.

It's real simple. Please post a picture front and back of an original Hoffstatter SS stickpin, so that we will all know the real thing. Should be a snap. Please post it.

[J. Wraith]

Please post a link. I guess my computer skills are slim, because I cannot seem to find the evidence you claim is there.

It's real simple. Please post a picture front and back of an original Hoffstatter SS stickpin, so that we will all know the real thing. Should be a snap. Please post it.

I cant post pics as i am not an association member but there are many shown here on WAF including the one that started this thread so you already have one and i am sure someone else can post theirs. Another thing to consider though, although these are not ultra rare at a large show you might see somewhere around 6-10 original hoffs on tables. At this years SOS there were roughly 60-80 raised Hoffs with one dealer having a riker full of ZA pins, about 25 and all raised hoffstatters, that should not be and not the way it works when hunting. Their being made and their modern and that explains the large amount that have hit market and continue to hit market.

[Gary Symonds]

I cant post pics as i am not an association member but there are many shown here on WAF including the one that started this thread so you already have one and i am sure someone else can post theirs. Another thing to consider though, although these are not ultra rare at a large show you might see somewhere around 6-10 original hoffs on tables. At this years SOS there were roughly 60-80 raised Hoffs with one dealer having a riker full of ZA pins, about 25 and all raised hoffstatters, that should not be and not the way it works when hunting. Their being made and their modern and that explains the large amount that have hit market and continue to hit market.

Funny, most shows I go to Hoffstatter pins are mighty scarce.

Well, I am sure that some members who ponied up the $25 bucks to be Associate Members can post some pics.

I guess I just will have to wait the revelations.

[Matthew]

Hoff

It's real simple. Please post a picture front and back of an original Hoffstatter SS stickpin, so that we will all know the real thing. Should be a snap. Please post it.

Here are a few original Hoffstattter made SS civil pins across the number range.
Photo courtesy: Germanwarbooty.com

[Gary Symonds]

Matthew, thanks for the pictures.

[C.Reinhardt]

Gary,

Those are both raised Hoffstatter marks and considered to be reproductions. The one here is impressed and early so not sure we have many early examples to compare with but those wont do us any good with their status as it is.

J. Wraith is correct.

[Bob Hritz]

There sure looks to be a lot of variation in the lettering and even more in the numbering. I wonder how many reverse dies therenweremfor this stickpin.

Bob Hritz

[JoeW]

Please post a link. I guess my computer skills are slim, because I cannot seem to find the evidence you claim is there.

It's real simple. Please post a picture front and back of an original Hoffstatter SS stickpin, so that we will all know the real thing. Should be a snap. Please post it.

Gary, here is the thread you visited last summer that showed the impressed ZA pins. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...zivilabzeichen

There sure looks to be a lot of variation in the lettering and even more in the numbering. I wonder how many reverse dies therenweremfor this stickpin.

Bob Hritz

Bob, might I suggest that some variation in numbering might occur from the reissue of pins to members requesting replacements? The SS-Befehlsblatt recorded many lost ZA pins and the option to buy replacements was there. The standard production with uniform impressed sequential issue number would have been production from Hoffstater, but the oddly numbered pins are those that had to be produced manually for replacement purposes.

[J. Wraith]

Funny, most shows I go to Hoffstatter pins are mighty scarce.

Hoffstatter's are really not all that scarce, I reference the S.O.S which is a 2000 table show that brings in global dealers and buyers, so finding 6 or 10 real Hoff's is not a lot when you look at the amount of product in a hall that size. What is notable is that for those 6 or 10 real pins there are 100+ fakes from the run of the mill fake peddlers to the mixed bag dealers. So you run at least a 10-1 fake to real in market whether they be unmarked examples, or a raised Hoff, or the total obvious new manufacture. When you see a riker mount full of civil stickpins however and all of the same type, that is notable. I think last year there was even a Gahr in the hall but it was damaged. One of those in a 2000 table show is actually rare.

[Wim Vangossum]

I only like the examples with impressed maker marks and numbers. The raised mm is not good IMO. Originals are rare compared to the fakes, but not extremely rare so it is better to buy safe.



Regards, Wim

[Seiler]

Nice shot Wim.
Do I spy with my little eye a "Gahr" there!!!!
Seiler.

[Wim Vangossum]

Nice shot Wim.
Do I spy with my little eye a "Gahr" there!!!!
Seiler.

You are a good spy, Seiler


Regards, Wim

[Gary Symonds]

I would like to add the following observations:

In Jo Rivett's book, The Party Badge, Jo says that when the TR began, Hoffstatter had already been in the badge business for over 100 years. The nay sayer's are telling us that it is out of the question that Hoffstatter had more than one reverse die, an assumption without evidence.

We know that Deschler had two different reverse dies for the GPB, both large and small. One of the dies for the 24mm badge had the name of the firm in a bar with raised letters. The other die had a blank reverse. The alternative large badge die had the Ges Gesch also in a bar, with the other die with Ges Gesch impressed. So we know that alternate reverse dies were used by major firms.

The SS stickpins with the raised logo uses a number font that is so small that it is hard to read with the naked eye. A faker would have to go to great trouble and expense to duplicate that. The impressed badges posted all show a larger number font that was applied by hand. The raised logo badges were laid down by machine, it would be too difficult to apply such small number dies by hand.

As Bob Hritz has pointed out, there is a variation shown in the impressed logo dies, so it appears that even this reverse die was not uniform.

The raised logo looks real, and in any event, the obverse die is identical to the obverses seen on the impressed logo stickpins.

As to the multitude of raised Hoffstatter's seen at the SOS, these could very well be copies of the raised logo stickpins. I would be very surprised if these examples utilized the micro size number font. If anyone has an example to post, it would really help.

The quality of the raised logo stickpins are equal to period standards for enameling and workmanship. I cannot accept without further evidence that these are reproductions.

[SiPo]

I would like to add the following observations:

In Jo Rivett's book, The Party Badge, Jo says that when the TR began, Hoffstatter had already been in the badge business for over 100 years. The nay sayer's are telling us that it is out of the question that Hoffstatter had more than one reverse die, an assumption without evidence.

We know that Deschler had two different reverse dies for the GPB, both large and small. One of the dies for the 24mm badge had the name of the firm in a bar with raised letters. The other die had a blank reverse. The alternative large badge die had the Ges Gesch also in a bar, with the other die with Ges Gesch impressed. So we know that alternate reverse dies were used by major firms.

The SS stickpins with the raised logo uses a number font that is so small that it is hard to read with the naked eye. A faker would have to go to great trouble and expense to duplicate that. The impressed badges posted all show a larger number font that was applied by hand. The raised logo badges were laid down by machine, it would be too difficult to apply such small number dies by hand.

As Bob Hritz has pointed out, there is a variation shown in the impressed logo dies, so it appears that even this reverse die was not uniform.

The raised logo looks real, and in any event, the obverse die is identical to the obverses seen on the impressed logo stickpins.

As to the multitude of raised Hoffstatter's seen at the SOS, these could very well be copies of the raised logo stickpins. I would be very surprised if these examples utilized the micro size number font. If anyone has an example to post, it would really help.

The quality of the raised logo stickpins are equal to period standards for enameling and workmanship. I cannot accept without further evidence that these are reproductions.

Gary, understandable that you want to protect your interests after all, nobody likes to find what they believe to be original is actually not.

No matter how much you try, you simply can't polish a turd!

Here's another thread where these were discussed.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...bership+pin+SS

Having looked at the original posted pin again, I still believe it has been re-enamelled as the surface is not as flat as it should be.