Estonian SS Officer collar tab set

[Christian J]

Did anyone see the price it went for?

[Askold]

Consider it was an officer tab - at least a grand?

[all1knew]

Consider it was an officer tab - at least a grand?

probably closer to 5k

[wehl]

glad to see the tab you begged me to sell you you ended up on a dealer's website, that's class!

William Kramer

profit actions are all over the pleace,i hope you has get a decent price for this interesting and rare tab.

[codytrcollector]

glad to see the tab you begged me to sell you you ended up on a dealer's website, that's class!

William Kramer

If that is not the kettle calling the pot black I don't know what is! Over 99% of your many post on these fora are, "real or not" threads you've created. On the other hand, Mr. Davis goes above and beyond on a daily basis to help out fellow collectors. How is your using of this forum to authentic a item, free of charge might I add, to only turn around and sell it for a profit different than Mr. Davis buying a item and selling it right away? Ever think he may of been low on funds and needed to sell it for bills?
Another theory: the images you supplied originally were poor at best, and even though it did show without any doubt the tab was original, many details were lacking. If Mr. Davis hadn't jumped on this extremely rare tab right away he would have missed it. What could've also happened was once he received the tab and it was in-hand he realized it was a issued example which could be a condition that he doesn't collect.
He did nothing wrong, period, and you calling into question his character is ludicrous and hypocritical in my opinion.

[all1knew]

If that is not the kettle calling the pot black I don't know what is! Over 99% of your many post on these fora are, "real or not" threads.

So don't post items for authentication on an authentication forum? I've started roughly 1,500 threads (not all asking real or fake of 11,000 posts and you say 99%?)

and you really don't see anything wrong with buying off the forum at collector value (collector to collector exchange) and then posting on a retail site? That's a heck of a business concept!

If Mr. Davis hadn't jumped on this extremely rare tab right away he would have missed it.

well considering I didn't post it for sale on the e-stand and he sent a PM asking to buy it doesn't really go along with that theory of yours, does it? He PM'ed me several times asking to buy it, then turned around and sold it via consignment on a dealer's website. Like I said, that's class!

William Kramer

[codytrcollector]

Like I said, you have no idea why he sold the tab. He could've loss his job, fallen ill, etc etc. As for it not being posted on the Estand, many items are sold "collector to collector", as you've stated, in private. If he didn't pm you and buy it right away, someone else likely would've.
-------
Yes, that is one of it's uses, but that doesn't mean the forum is here for the sole purpose of authenticating your items. If it were, and that was the only reason members used it, there would be nobody here to say whether the items were real or fake.
All I'm attempting to convey here is it'd be nice to see a little more helping and less asking for assistance from certain members, especially when the item is common and five seconds of self-help would reveal the answer they seek.
That's all, that and it needed to be noted Mr. Davis is a true gentleman. Maybe you should've contacted him via pm first?

[all1knew]

If he didn't pm you and buy it right away, someone else likely would've.

seven others did (and told him this) but this would be the pinnacle of his tab collection I was told.

Sure, he may have had bills, I know how that is, but I didn't see anything else being sacrificed, just the one thing he bought from me. So I'm the bad guy because I find that a classless act? I seriously doubt it was sold at a loss.

William Kramer

[codytrcollector]

Yes, do you not sell items for a profit too? Items you just purchased days before directly from vets(who usually get ripped off: not saying you do) estates, antique stores, etc.? So it's not ok for the buyer to sell after buying something collector to collector but it is ok to sell after buying from a veteran(who paid much more for these objects than us) to another collector? Where's the logic in that. Since Mr. Davis bought this from a collector is he never allowed to sell it? And if he can, what does it matter if it's in a day or in a year?
Simply put, when selling anything, it becomes a business transaction, regardless of what it is. Where's the difference in your actions verses Mr. Davis? Out of all people, due to you own a business which specializes in Third Reich items, you should understand this. It's just of my opinion that if he is classless, you are as well.
--Allow me to apologize to the other members for derailing this thread. I usually don't get involved in this kind of crap, but Mr. Davis is too good of a guy to remain silent. This is my last comment on the matter.--

By the way, what makes this transaction a collector to collector sale? You are a dealer, you didn't sell it on the Estand, and considering the rarity of the item and the amount of inquiries you received, I doubt it was sold at an extremely discounted price.

[all1knew]

Yes, do you not sell items for a profit too? Items you just purchased days before directly from vets(who usually get ripped off: not saying you do) estates, antique stores, etc.? So it's not ok for the buyer to sell after buying something collector to collector but it is ok to sell after buying from a veteran(who paid much more for these objects than us) to another collector? Where's the logic in that. Since Mr. Davis bought this from a collector is he never allowed to sell it? And if he can, what does it matter if it's in a day or in a year?
Simply put, when selling anything, it becomes a business transaction, regardless of what it is. Where's the difference in your actions verses Mr. Davis? Out of all people, due to you own a business which specializes in Third Reich items, you should understand this. It's just of my opinion that if he is classless, you are as well.
--Allow me to apologize to the other members for derailing this thread. I usually don't get involved in this kind of crap, but Mr. Davis is too good of a guy to remain silent. This is my last comment on the matter.--

By the way, what makes this transaction a collector to collector sale? You are a dealer, you didn't sell it on the Estand, and considering the rarity of the item and the amount of inquiries you received, I doubt it was sold at an extremely discounted price.

ya know, I have done business with a lot of people on this forum. I am 30 years old. I do not have an extra hundred dollars in my bank account, and it is very hard to have a nice collection on my meager budget. Have I sold off a lot in my day, absolutely, but you should see the stuff I keep. I sell to fund my addiction. Want to know what I have wrapped up in this display sitting in my man-cave? I have worked very hard for my accomplishments in this hobby, and I have cut a LOT of deals to do so.

http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...d.php?t=668794

I assure you, I have quite a collection for my age; I am a collector more so than quite a few on this forum. Does it matter if I sell pencils elsewhere to purchase militaria or items that don't fit within my realm of collecting interests here on the e-stand? At the end of the day, as long as you are buying more, in my opinion, it makes no difference as this is a hobby for enjoyment. Beauty is seen in the eye of the beholder.

What I am not doing is asking people by PM to sell the cream of the crop only to flip it and furthermore (since I'm such a bad guy in this hobby) if I didn't sell items on the e-stand at EXTREMELY reasonable prices would people be buying?

I do not purchase off this forum to turn and sell on a dealer's website, and I feel that is what happened here. If this was an accepted behavior within the collector community, it would happen day in and day out BUT I would tend to think it is an unwritten rule of thumb that transactions like this are frowned-against here on this great forum. Generally speaking, "business transactions" and prices on this forum are typically less than the retail value of pieces; its why we have the e-stand - for collectors to collectors.

The buyer knew about other interested parties, but where was his discounted e-stand listing? I have seen him sell several items here before in the past, why not this time? You don't think I sold that tab at a discounted (collector value) price? I wonder what it sold for at retail when Martin did? I'll be happy to reveal what I sold it for.

William Kramer

[sam1chlt]

I personally have and would not under any circumstance purchase something on this forum an turn around within a few weeks to sell to make a profit. I have had the opportunity to do so and have been unemployed, but moral values prevailed. I sold other smaller items to make ends meet and even dealers helped me do so at a loss. I have always felt that what comes around goes around on this forum and was recently screwed by a replacement FM honor pin. The original seller was legit and disclosed the facts, the re seller purposefully did not. I hope there are some amount of values here and decent people. The original seller refunded all my money, while the crook stated he was broke and it wasn't his problem. I have dealt with William and never had a problem.

[sam1chlt]

I was also offered this tab before anyone, at a very good price that would not gouge the estate that it came from and I was not in a position to purchase due to job change. I don't know what it sold for, but I would gamble it was at least $1000 more than what I was offered.... Probably more due to the dealer.

[codytrcollector]

I am in no way calling Williams character into question. I just feel he "jumped the gun" a bit too quick and should've contacted Mr. Davis in private prior to making a public character assassination as in my opinion Mr. Davis is a well-respected member: atleast he's at WRF. I'm also completely aware William is a respectable dealer who often sells at bargain prices but honestly that's beside the point.
Again, what I'm attempting to convey, besides the message we still have no idea why Mr. Davis sold the tab, is that I see no difference from paying a veteran half, or even less, of an items value to only turn around, sometimes hours later, and sell it to another collector than it's for a collector to purchase an item from another collector and sell it once he received it for a profit.
There's also no reason for you to reiterate your prior post: I can completely comprehend point, Mr. Williams and if you weren't a dealer and/or weren't going to sell the tab already I would've probably agreed with you. Pleading with someone to sell you their prized possession from their collection only to turn around and sell it for a mark up days later is, in a collector to collector sense, morally wrong......that's not what happened here though! In fairness and regardless of how rare the item was, it's only another one of your, and I'm paraphrasing here, "many transactions" as you put it earlier. Once you make your profit, as I'm sure you also never sell at a loss, what does it matter to you what happens to it?
Now, if you want to talk about this any further please contact me via pm here or over at the WRF....we've derailed this thread quite enough already to continue with this crap that's going nowhere.

[NickG]

I personally have and would not under any circumstance purchase something on this forum an turn around within a few weeks to sell to make a profit. I have had the opportunity to do so and have been unemployed, but moral values prevailed. I sold other smaller items to make ends meet and even dealers helped me do so at a loss. I have always felt that what comes around goes around on this forum and was recently screwed by a replacement FM honor pin. The original seller was legit and disclosed the facts, the re seller purposefully did not. I hope there are some amount of values here and decent people. The original seller refunded all my money, while the crook stated he was broke and it wasn't his problem. I have dealt with William and never had a problem.

Agreed fully!
I realize the thread has been derailed but I dont think its kosher to beg to buy something (because it is filling a big hole in a collection or a must have for whatever reason...crown jewel of the collection explanation...so as a favor) and than turn it around for profit.

I never sell on estand...I only buy on estand but I have sold a lot of things to fellow WAF members (outside of estand) who have seen my collection thread and have contacted me...I've sold Latvian SS shield insignia and Latvian SS pocket diary because the buyer's granddad served in that unit...
I have even sold an Estonian tab to D.Davies because he asked if he could purchase it...(it did get returned as he was not pleased with it but that's another story) but I think it put a blemish on his reputation to plead,beg, ask and than cash out...
being called on the carpet for that is not unreasonable!

[codytrcollector]

I mostly agree with you Nick, but so far all we have is one side of the story. If possible and agreed upon, it would be interesting to read the correspondence between the two parties. Also, one interpreting someone begging can be quite subjective, not unlike many other things in life.