Totenkopf ring

[Antonio Scapini]

Ost medals were die cast. And this was the most massive production of the Third Reich awards. Millions of these medal were produced from tens of different manufacturers.
If die casting process was so complicated I don't think tens of manufacturers used all the same die casting process. and I'm speaking about only one award, but a lot more were die cast.
Rings were only few thousands pruduced in more than 10 years.

[sgstandard]

Rings

Before we can discuss further, we have to be on the same page. When I say "die-struck", I mean the process of a heavy metal press, STAMPING OUT the piece. In "casting", I'm referring to the lost-wax process, where each ring has to have a wax ring made before it's replaced with molten metal. I went through the myriad of steps necessary to "cast" a ring, as opposed to STAMPING it out. If you can tell me the advantage of casting these rings using "lost wax", I will believe, but there aren't any. Coins aren't made by casting them with lost wax, and I don't believe most medals are either. Just like tinnies, they are "stamped" or "pressed". I'm not sure about aluminum, such as the SA-Treffen Braunschweig badge, but I don't believe Nazi-period badges were generally "lost-wax cast". Despite sounding like a genius, I'm open to others who know more about how Nazi badges were manufactured.

[sgstandard]

Rings

You say: "Ost medals were die-cast." We may even be talking about the same process. What I meant was they were not "Lost-wax" cast. We may just be using different terminology for the same method.

[sdesember]

The TKring that started this thread is probably made in Japan.

[pzb14]

With the later added pictures, it's getting easier to say, that it is a fake

best, Pzb14

[Seiler]

Initially I was FOR.
Now it becomes more evident it
is not original.Poor me.I would have
been "burned"and LOST.
Seiler

[Gaspare]

when some of the superfakes get nice and worn they look even better than fresh!, this one has sub standard engraving for sure along with other problems.

Nothing was made with the lost wax method during the 3rd reich period. Believe it or not back then it was more expensive to do lost wax than the die method.

The HR wasn't die struck,,but die pressed,,big difference..

On GDCs ring forum it shows 2 pages of topics. But there are over 30!,,you must change how the pages are displayed at the lower bottom left..

[james m]

when some of the superfakes get nice and worn they look even better than fresh!, this one has sub standard engraving for sure along with other problems.

Nothing was made with the lost wax method during the 3rd reich period. Believe it or not back then it was more expensive to do lost wax than the die method.

The HR wasn't die struck,,but die pressed,,big difference..

On GDCs ring forum it shows 2 pages of topics. But there are over 30!,,you must change how the pages are displayed at the lower bottom left..

You of course are correct about the differences although die striking and die pressing continue to be used interchangeably by most collectors. The important point to me is the distinct understanding that TK rings were formed in dies and NOT using the lost wax casting method.

[Antonio Scapini]

Before we can discuss further, we have to be on the same page. When I say "die-struck", I mean the process of a heavy metal press, STAMPING OUT the piece. In "casting", I'm referring to the lost-wax process, where each ring has to have a wax ring made before it's replaced with molten metal. I went through the myriad of steps necessary to "cast" a ring, as opposed to STAMPING it out. If you can tell me the advantage of casting these rings using "lost wax", I will believe, but there aren't any. Coins aren't made by casting them with lost wax, and I don't believe most medals are either. Just like tinnies, they are "stamped" or "pressed". I'm not sure about aluminum, such as the SA-Treffen Braunschweig badge, but I don't believe Nazi-period badges were generally "lost-wax cast". Despite sounding like a genius, I'm open to others who know more about how Nazi badges were manufactured.

I agree with you when you say the lost-wax process was not used for make each ring. No doubt about.
But there's a big difference between a die struck and a die cast process. With die cast process I'm referring to the way used to make medals and badges during the TR era. I have a fairly good experience in TR medals and awards, and I know what can be the differences between a die struck and a die cast medal. In my last book about the Afrikamedaille both these process were used to make the specimens.
Die cast process used a mold for the front and one for the back, in which is inserted the liquid metal. When the metal solidifies, the mold is opened and the ring (or medal) worked to remove the impurities in excess. This process can be used thousand times. It is fast and less expensive that the die struck.
Once you created a die-mother, you can use it for years and years without any problem.

This can explain why there are some little (or big) air holes in rings.

These are my 2 cents!

[Hoss]

Antonio:
I doubt that there's anyone left from the Gahr's jewelry facility who can provide you with "solid proofs".

I certainly don't consider my self an expert here but all you really have to do is look at the construction of a real one to see how they were made. In a nutshell they were made in 2 pieces the band and the skull. The band was die struck flat, appropriately engraved, rounded probably on a mandrel and sized. The skull was struck separately and soldered over the sizing seam to cover it.
Jim

Hello Jim
May I suggest one correction; the ring was engraved last then polished.

Antonio
May we see the ring with those inner band flaws please you pictured.

Eric

[Antonio Scapini]

Yes Eric!

[Antonio Scapini]

2

[Antonio Scapini]

3

[Antonio Scapini]

Too bad the engraving was abrased, but it is partially visible.
However abrasion has brought to light what to me are obvious signs of die-cast production.

[Ric Ferrari]

.....Nothing was made with the lost wax method during the 3rd reich period. Believe it or not back then it was more expensive to do lost wax than the die method........

That's my thought.

Ric