Totenkopf ring

[PaulMann]

cold feet

I saw this one on auction, it had a few bids, apparently they were retracted. It shows now that it didn't sell.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221311421196...84.m1438.l2649

cheers,
Pauli

[tanker]

That is the one being discussed here. A red flag is when comes up for 800.00 , buyer beware!

That is JR's neck of the woods, wonder if he knows anything about it??

[sgstandard]

Ring

Good catch!! - Definitely the same ring. I'd like to give a "shout-out" to the fakers - Congratulations!! - You finally learned how to use silver oxidizer on the inside engraving - Excellent !! Now, next time, carve the eyes out by hand, instead of using a drill !! Otherwise, nice skull !! Another problem the fakers have, is that, IMO, totenkopfring bands were created with a die press, not cast. Casting is ok for more limited runs, but it's not practical for larger runs, due to the amount of work required, and the necessity of touch-up. Whereas the die-struck process has more predictable results, is much faster, and once the equipment is set up, it's far more economic. Also, the rings are not silver, but a combination of silver and other alloys. The result is a metal that doesn't oxidize as quickly, and in the same way as silver does. This is NOT intended to revive the "casting vs. die-struck" debate. So it looks like Mr. and Mrs. Faker have a lot of work to do............and don't forget the "die-flaws" !!

[PaulMann]

built to fool

Good catch!! - Definitely the same ring. I'd like to give a "shout-out" to the fakers - Congratulations!! - You finally learned how to use silver oxidizer on the inside engraving - Excellent !! Now, next time, carve the eyes out by hand, instead of using a drill !! Otherwise, nice skull !! Another problem the fakers have, is that, IMO, totenkopfring bands were created with a die press, not cast. Casting is ok for more limited runs, but it's not practical for larger runs, due to the amount of work required, and the necessity of touch-up. Whereas the die-struck process has more predictable results, is much faster, and once the equipment is set up, it's far more economic. Also, the rings are not silver, but a combination of silver and other alloys. The result is a metal that doesn't oxidize as quickly, and in the same way as silver does. This is NOT intended to revive the "casting vs. die-struck" debate. So it looks like Mr. and Mrs. Faker have a lot of work to do............and don't forget the "die-flaws" !!

cheers,
Pauli

[Antonio Scapini]

... IMO, totenkopfring bands were created with a die press, not cast. Casting is ok for more limited runs, but it's not practical for larger runs, due to the amount of work required, and the necessity of touch-up. Whereas the die-struck process has more predictable results, is much faster, and once the equipment is set up, it's far more economic. Also, the rings are not silver, but a combination of silver and other alloys.

I don't want open the dabate, but IMO there's something different from what you said...
Die casting process is not for limited runs as you said, for example Ost medals were die cast... And this was not a limited run!
In TK rings there are sometimes some signs of casting process, as air bubbles, little holes, that a die struck process can't generate. As far as I know the rings are all around 90% of silver and 10% of other metals.

Here an example from my collection were you can clearly see what for me are some signs of casting process.

[james m]

Antonio:
I think you may have misread what sgstandard was saying above. Die striking, and this is the process used to make TK rings does lend itself to high volume. Casting in rubber molds is strictly for low volume work and furthermore was rarely used during the 3rd Reich period.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum or over on GDC where a current maker(Hapur) of nice TK ring copies went thru the whole process for everyone. I'd recommend you find and review that thread.
John Pepera, rest his soul, had several of his TK rings tested for content and while he stated they were alloys he never disclosed the exact composit ion. I'm fairly certain the primary metal other than silver is copper. However I've had my Hapur copy for over 5 years and I wear it all the time and there is no noticeable wear to the metal like is often seen with the originals. This tells me that the originals were a softer composition that my copy which is made of .925(sterling) silver.
Jim

[Hoss]

Blimey here we go again Gents rings were die-struck and formed on a mandrel not cast why do you gentlemen have to make things so complicated, its just a ring.
Rubber cast molds was a mind game exercise from people flogging fakes! end it. The ring shown here to a 'Valvo' lol! is a no brainer fake.

Regards

[sgstandard]

"Why do you gentlemen have to make things so complicated, it's just a ring."
That's like saying a Waffen-SS visor is just a hat, or an SS dagger is just a knife. The forum is intended for discussion of artifacts. If the discussion is too complicated, we'll be happy to explain .

[Hoss]

No thanks
I'm happy enough if I'd like one which doesn't seem likely now owing to the prices I could make a pretty good judgment call.

Dear JP gave me some pointers and I've a couple of experts in my pocket, anyhow don't want to be booted again I've moved on to other interests.

Eric

[realone]

Hi guys,, heres a current one from Hapur, nice quality, not 90% silver, but some silver with maybe copper or even nickel, but no ferrus materail. He get its out fast too,,took about 2 weeks total time from ordering till it showed up here,,

Cost was $80 total shipped and engraved, you can get then for $47 but not engraved.


Enjoy the pics

Greg

[realone]

pic2

[Antonio Scapini]

Guys, I'm looking for solid proofs to confirm the idea the TK rings were die struck.
Any input is appreciated!
Thanks!

IMO the only way for do silver rings is with die cast process like the one I show below, very common during the TR era for doing awards like Para badge, ISA, Bandenkampf, Ost medals, and so on...

[james m]

Antonio:
I doubt that there's anyone left from the Gahr's jewelry facility who can provide you with "solid proofs".

I certainly don't consider my self an expert here but all you really have to do is look at the construction of a real one to see how they were made. In a nutshell they were made in 2 pieces the band and the skull. The band was die struck flat, appropriately engraved, rounded probably on a mandrel and sized. The skull was struck separately and soldered over the sizing seam to cover it.
Again if you look at the step by step procedure Hapur went over, I believe on GDC, this may be clearer to you.
The problem with GDC is they lose threads over time and I don't know if it's still there.

Realone:
My own Hapur ring was one of the first and the actual example he used to demonstrate the construction process on the thread over on GDC about 5 years ago. I asked him at the time about the ring metal composition and he told me it was 925 silver. I agree this is questionable since my example even with constant use over the years shows virtually no wear.
Additionally; the skull on my example didn't look like the one pictured above. It was way too big and misshaped I reformed it after receiving my ring and sent pictures of the alteration back to Hapur. It appears he used these alterations as the basis for examples like yours.
Jim

[Antonio Scapini]

Thanks Jim for your reply.
Yes, I know the two theories about the construction of the rings, but the die struck one let me not fully convinced.
I've seen some rings show signs of casting, as the one I showed some posts ago. These signs are evidences IMO.
Rings could be made even in a big size (die cast) with round dies, and after cut, resized and engraved.
Skull is empty when it is created, and fill with soldering metal. Even on the skull sometimes are visible litlle holes of air, and also this let me think the skulls where die cast and not die struck.

I miss for one year or more the evolution of the discussions about the TK rings, but seems nothing more is surfaced...

Thanks again Jim.

[sgstandard]

Rings

Instead of proof, which may be hard to ever find, ask yourself what the frugal and practical Germans would have done. I've been involved in casting silver jewelry for many years, and I can tell you, flat-out, that there is NO advantage whatsoever in lost-wax casting thousands of totenkopfrings. NONE! But there are MANY advantages to having them die-struck. The Germans have always been at the forefront in metallurgy, plating, etc. Think highly-detailed "tinnies" that are struck!! Once the dies have been made, each ring band could be stamped out - BAM !! Next one - BAM !! next one - BAM ! Compare that to the lost-wax casting process, that requires a rubber mold to be made, then - molten wax is forced into the mold. Then - the wax ring is extracted. Then - it has to be cleaned up and a sprew attached. Then- that wax ring (or a small cluster of them) has investment material poured around it. Then - it is vibrated to remove air bubbles. Then - after the investment hardens, the wax is melted and burned out. Then - molten metal is forced into the empty cavaties. Then - the investment is broken open, each ring extracted, the sprew is cut off, and the ring would be hand tooled and deburred. Thanks....but no thanks. When someone can tell me the overall advantages to lost-wax casting, I'll believe they were. But that won't happen. Most little jewelry makers use lost-wax casting only because the initial setup for die-striking is too expensive for small production. The German government could afford it though, as in the long run, it would be MORE economical, with far more predictable results. Signed, Otto Gahr Jr.