SS collar tab set Rottenführer - opinions needed

[codytrcollector]

Well, they fail the old parallell test as a start. I know of no other known original that matches this one. And the shape too... Thats all I can explain I am sad to say. Better safe than sorry.

Cheers
//Felix

Every embroidery item from this time period will not match exactly to "textbook" examples. You can more times than not note small differences in most known original examples. As for said tab, I have yet heard any sufficient evidence which suggest these are Reproductions, thus, I stand by original statement.
Also, one must always look at the tab in its entirety, not just one portion. Otherwise, what may seem incorrect in a certain area, and caused the item to be called a copy, could've just been a flaw and/or human error. In fact, in my opinion you can see flaws more often than original examples which match perfectly, due impart to all of the different makers and human error.
I do completely understand being cautious, but you must also understand the ss regime was anything but textbook, especially in regards to cloth. Different examples will have small differences, it is the mass what is so important, and what we should judge to authenticate a item.
I see to often original items deemed copies due to collectors being "cautious", usually being these tabs. This is not how it should be, IMO.
I'll say this and shut up, lol. These tabs are faked so well copies are bound to share characteristics with originals and verses.

[Felix]

Every embroidery item from this time period will not match exactly to "textbook" examples. You can more times than not note small differences in most known original examples. As for said tab, I have yet heard any sufficient evidence which suggest these are Reproductions, thus, I stand by original statement.
Also, one must always look at the tab in its entirety, not just one portion. Otherwise, what may seem incorrect in a certain area, and caused the item to be called a copy, could've just been a flaw and/or human error. In fact, in my opinion you can see flaws more often than original examples which match perfectly, due impart to all of the different makers and human error.
I do, however, understand being cautious, but you must also understand the ss regime was anything but textbook, especially in regards to cloth. Different examples will have small differences, it the mass what is so important, and what we should judge to authenticate a item.
I see to often original items deemed copies due to collectors being "cautious". This is not how it should be, IMO.
I'll say this and shut up, lol. These tabs are faked so well copies are bound to share characteristics with originals and verses.

I do not agree with your conclusions at all. I have given my opion and explaining. I am too tired of an argument and I hereby leave this matter.

Take care
//Felix

[codytrcollector]

I do not agree with your conclusions at all. I have given my opion and explaining. I am too tired of an argument and I hereby leave this matter.

Take care
//Felix

Good for you oh' holy one. What will we ever do??? Your not the only one whose put in the hours, I promise.
The "explaining" that was given was less than sufficient, and I've yet to see any factual evidence brought forth which would suggest said tab is a reproduction.
I am too TIRED of members who think their opinion is the only right one, the only one that should be voiced, and they are the only person with a large library that is used. You are on a forum which is a medium where like-minded parties come to debate an item, yet if someone goes against your opinion, it's "I'm sick of the crap, and, I'm out of here." Please, show me the logic in that?!? This tab has the correct material, buckram, and construction other than a different style in which the embroidery of the runes was executed. And even that could be contributed to many different reasons other than it being a copy. Also, the copies that I've seen which "somewhat", which is a word you used and is important in itself, resemble said tab do Not have all the same materials as an original or without having some kind of fault.
But go ahead and deem a tab that is quite possibly good a copy without it even in hand, and only on one "bad" characteristic. Shame shame lol.

[Felix]

Good for you oh' holy one. What will we ever do??? Your not the only one whose put in the hours.
The "explaining" that was given was less than sufficient, and I've yet to see any factual evidence brought forth which would suggest said tab is a reproduction.
I am too TIRED of members who think their opinion is the only right one, the only one that should be voiced, and they are the only with a large library that is used. You are on a forum which is a medium where like-minded parties come to debate an item, yet if someone goes against your opinion, it's "I'm sick of the crap, and I'm out of here." Please show me the logic in that?!? This tab has the correct material, buckram, and construction other than a different style in which the embroidery of the runes was executed. And even that could be contributed to many different reason other than it being a copy. Also, the copies that I've seen which "somewhat", which is a word you used and is important in itself, resemble said tab do Not have all the same materials as an original.
But go ahead and deem a tab that is quite possibly good a copy without it even in hand on, and only on one "bad" characteristic. Shame shame lol.

Obviously I am a "shame" and also tired holy one?. I did not know that but I trust your words. It is correct, right? It means I am not qualified to give an opionion. So, I refrain.

//Felix

[codytrcollector]

Obviously I am a "shame" and also tired holy one?. I did not know that but I trust your words. It is correct, right? It means I am not qualified to give an opionion. So, I refrain.

//Felix

Obviously you misread my post, or you are not good with the English language. I said this a forum, a place were members can come to debate on item. All opinion should be excepted. I am not the one who said I was tired of explaining myself and arguing. Hints the reasoning for me using the words "holy" and "tired".
Sorry I reponded to your post, but I will not sit by and watch an item be deemed a copy that is correct in almost every aspect because one member doesn't like my opinion, and is tired of arguing; on a forum nonetheless. So no, don't take my opinion for it, but I for sure will not take yours, either, and as for your qualifications, they played no part in my prior post, so they really don't matter to me at this point.

[Felix]

Obviously you misread my post, or you are not good with the English language. I said this a forum, a place were members can come to debate on item. All opinion should be excepted. I am not the one who said I was tired of explaining myself and arguing. Hints the reasoning for me using the words "holy" and "tired".
Sorry I reponded to your post, but I will not sit by and watch an item be deemed a copy that is correct in almost every aspect because one member doesn't like my opinion, and is tired of arguing; on a forum nonetheless. So no, don't take my opinion for it, but I for sure will not take yours, either, and as for your qualifications, they played no part in my prior post, so they really don't matter to me at this point.

So I should take a course in the english language? Perhaps I might. I just thought I knew english pretty well. But I am probably wrong. Yes I should study english instead of giving opinions on SS insignias. Thanks for teaching me.

I am sorry
//Felix

[codytrcollector]

So I should take a course in the english language? Perhaps I might. I just thought I knew english pretty well. But I am probably wrong. Yes I should study english instead of giving opinions on SS insignias. Thanks for teaching me.

I am sorry
//Felix

Now your just running around in circles looking for anything to change the subject. That's not what I meant and you know it. I will not belittle myself by acting like a sarcastic five year old such as you are doing. And if your "tired" of explaining your opinion, maybe you should do something else than give opinions on items of the ss. You clearly are frustrated with it, and I for one wouldn't stick around if I wasn't enjoying myself.
Do remember, too, I wasn't the one who got upset when someone challenged my opinion. You were the one to state you'd no longer comment on this thread and were tried of explaining yourself. I don't want to reiterate my entire prior post, but you deemed said tab that has all the correct material and such a copy based only on its embroidery. Not to mention its not in your hand, and only a few images have been provided. Then you posted one picture of Only the front of a "Similar" tab, and said the originally posted tab was fake due to it Somewhat compares well to X example. I then challenged it, and you, in return, got upset. I can't find the logic in that considering this is a forum, nor do I feel your justification for calling the tab a copy is undeniable proof that it is, indeed, a reproduction. With everything that is correct with said tab, I feel it deserves a better analysis than the one it has been given.
Now, if you want to run around in circles by all means go for it, but I will no longer contribute to the derailing of this threads topic. If you want to discuss the tab, however, I'd be more than happy to.

Add: And just so it's known, I too, have put many hours into the study of this subject. I also feel every collector should do their own homework, but one should also be entitled to debating a item when using accurate information, especially on a forum. I shouldn't of been meet with what I was, as nobody is always right, just as no one opinion should be the finally verdict.

[Felix]

Now your just running around in circles looking for anything to change the subject. That's not what I meant and you know it. I will not belittle myself by acting like a sarcastic five year old such as you are doing. And if your "tired" of explaining your opinion, maybe you should do something else than give opinions on items of the ss. You clearly are frustrated with it, and I for one wouldn't stick around if I wasn't enjoying myself.
Do remember, too, I wasn't the one who got upset when someone challenged my opinion. You were the one to state you'd no longer comment on this thread and were tried of explaining yourself. I don't want to reiterate my entire prior post, but you deemed said tab that has all the correct material and such a copy based only on its embroidery. Not to mention its not in your hand, and only a few images have been provided. Then you posted one picture of Only the front of a "Similar" tab, and said the originally posted tab was fake due to it Somewhat compares well to X example. I then challenged it, and you, in return, got upset. I can't find the logic in that considering this is a forum, nor do I feel your justification for calling the tab a copy is undeniable proof that it is, indeed, a reproduction. With everything that is correct with said tab, I feel it deserves a better analysis than the one it has been given.
Now, if you want to run around in circles by all means go for it, but I will no longer contribute to the derailing of this threads topic. If you want to discuss the tab, however, I'd be more than happy to.

Add: And just so it's known, I too, have put many hours into the study of this subject. I also feel every collector should do their own homework, but one should also be entitled to debating a item when using accurate information, especially on a forum. I shouldn't of been meet with what I was, as nobody is always right, just as no one opinion should be the finally verdict.

Obviously you have not put enough study hours on your account. And you should do your home work before going into a debate like this.

With regards
//Felix

[codytrcollector]

[QUOTE=Felix;6046145]Obviously you have not put enough study hours on your account. And you should do your home work before going into a debate like this.

With regards
//Felix[/

It would be helpful if you actually said which points were incorrect in my debate.
As for the amount of hours studied, there is always more to learn so I will never stop studying, but I've done plenty of "home work", so don't tell me not enough has been done. Obviously, once again, your attempting to upset me, and lead me back into a argument with you rather than what we should be doing, debating. For someone who is sick of the "arguments" you sure do make a lot of rude comments which would instigate one.
Now, the parallel test you spoke of is a inaccurate examination when using photographs, obviously, due to all the different angles in which a picture can be taken; said tab is a prime example. That is exactly why it's best to have this variant in-hand when determining authenticity. Other than that, I haven't a clue what makes your believe said tab is a reproduction as not much else has been stated. I have atleast suggested multiple reasons for the tab Possibly being a good one.
If I may ask you this, does the tab in the link below pass your "parallel test"? Is it, too, a reproduction? Does it not have the same buckram and construction on the back?
Also, what other characteristics do you see in the originally posted tab that suggest it's a copy?

http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...ph=2956&phqu=2

I have sent pictures of the tab to well known SS collectors who, as well, say this tab is good. Once I receive permission, and a detailed reasoning, I will post it.

Add: Here is a link to the first tab posted in this thread. It is still on the dealers site. Sorry, you have to find it as it won't let me post a direct link. It's under cloth insignia, then ss insignia.

http://military-antiques-stockholm.com/

[codytrcollector]

Here is an example that was clearly photographed at a different angle. It passes your parallel test partly because of this. It, unlike the other two, was shot from above without angling the camera.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Waffe...s/S000970.html

[90th Light]

I am bringing this one back to the top here because it looks like "Felix" has given bad advice. I would appear to have made the mistake of taking it into account when making a decision about these.

Here is the other thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=701435

Just goes to show, get more than one opinion. Full credit to "codycollector" for being on to it,

Chris

[90th Light]

All I can say is told you so!
I respect the cat guy, but we can All be wrong at times. This is one of those times for him. Guess he's the one who needs to put more work in.

I probably deserve this given the fact that I put too much weight on what I thought was "Felix's" experience in the matter.

Then again there are those that agree with him. The problem is, does the "parellal test" hold up in all cases or is that just another myth of "collector folklore" ???

Chris

[codytrcollector]

I am bringing this one back to the top here because it looks like "Felix" has given bad advice. I would appear to have made the mistake of taking it into account when making a decision about these.

Here is the other thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=701435

Just goes to show, get more than one opinion. Full credit to "codycollector" for being on to it,

Chris

Thank you, sir.

[codytrcollector]

I probably deserve this given the fact that I put too much weight on what I thought was "Felix's" experience in the matter.

Then again there are those that agree with him. The problem is, does the "parellal test" hold up in all cases or is that just another myth of "collector folklore" ???

Chris

I am all for the parallel test, actually. The only problem I find is when certain collectors don't take into account all aspects, especially the angles at which the photographs are taken, such in this case. You can make any original tab of this variant pass or fail said test just by tilting the camera in a different direction. Such is just another reason why having these in-hand when attempting to authenticate them is so important.
By the way, I was only giving you a hard time earlier, and truly meant no disrespect. Besides, I don't blame you as many respect his opinions, and you don't know me from Adam. That said, this does show you that anyone can be wrong! I provided plenty of evidence to support my theory, Felix didn't. To me that speaks volumes as to who was right. One must always trust the facts, not the collectors reputation.

[90th Light]

I am all for the parallel test, actually. The only problem I find is when certain collectors don't take into account all aspects, especially the angles at which the photographs are taken, such in this case. You can make any original tab of this variant pass or fail said test just by tilting the camera in a different direction. Such is just another reason why having these in-hand when attempting to authenticate them is so important.
By the way, I was only giving you a hard time earlier, and truly meant no disrespect. Besides, I don't blame you as many respect his opinions, and you don't know me from Adam. That said, this does show you that anyone can be wrong! I provided plenty of evidence to support my theory, Felix didn't. To me that speaks volumes as to who was right. One must always trust the facts, not the collectors reputation.

No disrespect taken ,

you have made some very good points that need to be taken on board. I respect anyone who is prepared to analyse an item on a series of indicators, weigh them up and come to a conclusion. Many times, I have done this myself on several WAF threads or asked others to take this appraoach.

However, the question now becomes one of 101%. By this I mean;

1/ -who has a beyond doubt veteran brought back example in their collection ???

2/ -How many advanced collectors of many years standing, have handled one ???

3/ -are there any period photos of the type of non-parallel tab in wear ???

I strongly suspect this is what Felix has based his opinion/ postings upon.

Do not get me wrong, I really like this tab, I nearly bought it. I am kicking myself for not taking heed of Peter's experience on this one. I love, collect & discuss variations from the text-book norm for their interest factor. When you can pick a period variation for yourself then you have truely come of age in this game.

"But" and there is always a but. The 3 questions above are important points in the analysis/ acceptance of any DAK or tropical item so why not also SS tabs

The one pictured below of a cut off version. This is the only image of this variant type that I have found so far. This was part of a thread where the owner was saying that these three tabs were direct veteran bring-backs. The main focus was the "DF 3" tab. Some advanced collectors were very involved in this thread, Felix was one of them. They were saying on the "DF 3" tab being original before May 1945.

If the "DF 3" tab was bad then where does that leave the other two tabs ??? Felix stated that the focus of the thread was "DF 3" tabs and he was not going to discuss the others but did not seem impressed. The owner was adamant, they had come directly from a veteran.



My interest and study of this type of variant SS tab continues to grow,

Chris