SS Collar Tab Identification

[Der Alte]

Gentlemen,

After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that there seems to be a divided opinion amongst collectors as to which formation the following tab was associated with. So far I've been unable to come across an instance where any concrete evidence was brought forth and an agreement was reached regarding its origin. I've always found the general consensus to sway towards Charlemagne, but after reviewing this with a few prominent sources this may or may not be so. To date, I have also yet to see a photo of its existence in wear as it may have never been issued or worn. However, my goal is that we might be able to establish some new information in hopes of identifying it to a particular unit or formation. Please feel free to share any thoughts or information you might have, as I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you for your participation.

[PHILBROWN]

very interesting, may we see the reverse please, could it be a prototype tab discarded for the regiments? certainly got my attention

[NickG]

I vote French but never issued.
See Bob's post here: (# 11)

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=115738

[Basil]

The 'closed sunwheel' doesn't appear on the Feb 1945 'SS Map' and, as far as I know, there are no pictures of it being worn. Littlejohn, in 'Foreign Legions of the 3rd Reich' vol 1, suggests it may have been intended for the 'Danmark' regiment, as it is similar to the insignia of the DNSAP youth organisation. It doesn't look like a Celtic cross or any other kind of French symbol to me.

I suspect, as with a number of the 'Dachau' foreign volunteer insignia, that the reason there are so many around is that they were never widely issued, if at all.

[Der Alte]

As requested, here are photos of the reverse:

[Der Alte]

Although this particular emblem was in fact used by the DNSAP, I still have a hard time trying to connect it to the Danmark regiment. It's a well known fact that when the Nordland division was established the sonnenrod was chosen as the adopted design and members of the Norge and Danmark regiments each received their own honor titles. However to the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the blank and runic tabs, no two regiments belonging to a single SS division wore separate collar tabs of different designs simultaneously. Even if a newly designed tab was in fact proposed for the regiment itself, not only would it contradict this policy, but one must also wonder why a previously used design such as one from their time as a freikorps was not incorporated or resurrected.

The answer for this may reside in the units past, as when one studies the history of the Danmark regiment you will see quite a few changes in collar insignia along the way. Initially during its time with the Westland regiment and possibly shortly thereafter, its members wore the trifos design which would later reside with the Langemark division. After its transfer from the Wiking division it was authorized for a short while wear of a newly designed tab that featured the Danish national flag, but was replaced with the siegrunen intended for all personnel. Lastly, it would end up with the sonnenrod during its merger and formation of the Nordland division. It should also be noted that many members also opted to wear the siegrunen. This is one of the reasons why I find it hard to see a connection, and am also left wondering why yet another design would be proposed.

Although there are currently no known pictures of it being worn as it may have never been issued, photographic evidence does in fact prove however that the design did exist at the time. As fellow members have also pointed out, the tab is shown in the 1945 SS issued taschenkalendar as pictured below. Another important thing worth mentioning that I think should be pointed out, is the consistency of the sonnenrod in both the 1945 SS issued map and taschenkalendar as being listed as belonging to both the Norwegian and Danish factions; whereas the "Sword of St. Joan" tab was replaced with the design in question and also designated "Frankreich". Could this be proof that the displayed tab was in fact another prototype intended for the Charlemagne division at the time? Would like to hear your thoughts regarding the matter.


Photo credit goes to Friedrich-Berthold of the WRF. Please refer to Rene Chavez's site: http://axis101.bizland.com/GermanInsignias1.htm for a reference of the map mentioned.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

did you read my extensive work in the previous topic ?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=115738

This patch was never issued to the Frenchs in the Waffen-SS from 1944 up to May 1945.
All copies are taken from unissued Dachau stock.

The history of the french Waffen-SS is pretty chaotic, and Eric Lefèvre is currently writing articles for "39-45 Magazine" about its creation.

For example an article of "Storm SS" from August 1943 is already giving the name of "Charlemagne" to the future french SS Regiment.
Then during the summer 1943 the "Brigade" will be known as "Frankreich", and in fall 1944 then "Charlemagne" again.
Until the article of Lefèvre, the "Storm SS" source was unknown.

Therefore, this is not a surprise to see that the various designs (Joan Of Arc, celtic cross) may have been worked on, then cancelled.
The celtic cross was probably a bit too much looking like the "Action Française" logo, which was quite nationalist & royalist (and against Germany...).

This is obvious that when the logo was worked on (summer 1944), the celtic cross was in the final stage as it was included in the Taschen-Kalender 1945.
Knowing the administrative rules in the SS, the design was planned for good, and production was also planned.

For an unknown reason (Krukenberg didn't want them ? Krukenberg or the SS-Hauptamt wanted the Kragenspiegel to be given only after the first blood of the "Charlemagne" - Pomerania Feb-March 1945 ? Lack of time in April 1945 to send the Kragenspiegels to Neustrelitz where the remains of the "Charlemagne" was located ? Same for the units still in Wildflecken ?) the Kragenspiegel was never issued to the Frenchs...

Maybe there are some archives in the SS files about this subject.

See You

Vince

[Der Alte]

Thank you for your input Vince. I have studied your work from the previous thread, but based on your comment (#30) I was under the assumption that you were dismissing the design's connection to the French as a whole. Whether the design was based on a type of Celtic cross or not, I feel that there is however enough sufficient evidence to show that it was in fact intended for the French troops at the time.

When questioning its association one must also take into consideration the Wiking tab for example. As many of you know there was a proposed alternative design intended for members of the Wiking division as well, but was apparently never issued or worn either. However when comparing the two instances one might notice a few similarities, such as: both groups had a proposed design(s) intended for their members, each had an example or prototype produced in small numbers, and both apparently neither issued or wore their designs. Does this mean these examples cease to exist? No. I'm sure many of us are aware of the Wiking tabs in collections or that are currently on the market today. The same can be said for the intended French design as examples can be found today, but most are in mint condition.

Now personally I don't feel that the term "never issued" should be an automatic dismissal for never being worn, as there is always the possibility that an example was obtained and worn at the time. As was stated in Vince's comment (#30) from the other thread, could it be possible that someone obtained and wore the tab but was later asked to remove it as was the case with the honor title? Also due to the lack of photos and veteran testimonies etc. it could be just as hard proving a tab was never worn, as if it actually was. It is important to always keep an open mind in these types of situations, especially with what little information we currently have available. Another question that arises, is that if the design was never issued or worn how does it explain the example shown above? As far as I recall it is currently the only uniformed removed example in existence that I've encountered.

Lastly, I can't help but notice the amount of confusion resulting from the designs debated symbolic origin. Some seem to think it is was based on a type of Celtic cross, while others claim it doesn't compare to any known examples altogether. Although there's currently no information to support these claims, it has however been commonly referred to as the “Celtic cross” tab. Keeping in mind that the design was a prototype, I have a proposition to properly identify and clear up some of the confusion until further evidence is brought forth. It is on that note that I would like to officially propose that we universally re-designate and refer to this design in the collecting community etc. as the "Frankreich" tab. Would this be acceptable? Would like to hear your thoughts and opinions.

[Winkelman]

.. Another question that arises, is that if the design was never issued or worn how does it explain the example shown above? As far as I recall it is currently the only uniformed removed example in existence that I've encountered.

Needless to say , I'd also be happy to see a picture of these in wear turn up one day .
It happened with the Wallonien tab , and the printed eagle ..

[Der Alte]

Perfect example, thank you for sharing! That makes two thus far I've seen, also supporting the theory that these tabs were in fact obtained and worn to some degree.

[Basil]

Please refer to Rene Chavez's site: http://axis101.bizland.com/GermanInsignias1.htm for a reference of the map mentioned.

Just to be clear, that is a modern re-working of the 1945 SS map, not a copy of the original, and some of the designs are different.

[Der Alte]

Thank you for the clarification. Although I was unable to obtain a copy of the original, this example does however properly display the designs in question. I believe a copy of the original can be found in Angolia's book: 'Cloth Insignia of the SS' on page #405.