SS Officers Tunic for Review

[viva_giulio]

Robert be happy let the people sing (bull****s) and enjoy your beauty, you checked it and there aren't heer sign, insignas are very nice... That's all.
Sometimes people if this forym coukd have more respect of waf and admins.

[RobertE]

I don't mind. If a collector posts such a tunic for discussion, then he really opens the door. So far, I think the comments have been on the mark and worthy of considering.

regards, Robert

[Johnny R]

The Unna SS signals unit-2.SS-Nachrichten-Sturmbann (I lived very close to there in Werl and visited the SS-Panzerschule location and SS leadership school areas but there was not much left) was one signals battalion of the eventual 16 ? in the W-SS and SS-VT. It had been stationed near Berlin and then moved to Unna, it was later used to form the Signals battalion of Das Reich Division-of which Der Fuhrer was part. Later the training and ersatz elements for that unit remained there.

[drbill]

I like the tunic, very nice

[RobertE]

Thanks for the additional information, Johnny. The move from Berlin to Unna took place in 1938, I believe, which would place our man there at the right time.

SS signals men from this Unna-based training unit were part of the original cadre of Das Reich / DF, as Johnny points out. This uniform came from that area (Westphalia).

Branch colored piping was authorized (for the first time) during this same period, and was applied to a number of uniform items. I again submit that this uniform was likely one of those items.

I don't think that any serious uniform collector would doubt this tunic in hand. I wore tailored military uniforms for 25 years, and collected them much longer. The wear, insignia, and tunic itself are original IMO, and show no signs of ever having been apart. Yes, talented tailors can make wonderful show pieces, but originaility speaks with a voice that's hard to miss.

regards, Robert

[phild]

Phild,

With respect I would disagree with your statement that "ALL non-infantry branch of arms soldiers serving (assigned) in infantry regiments wore their own (NON-INFANTRY) arms colors while assigned to the infantry regiment or any other regiment". What is your reference?

My understanding is that the waffenfarbe worn was that of the unit - so in the specialist abteilung of the pre-war SS-VT you would have different waffenfarbe (see Tychsen's pre-war tunic with cavalry waffenfarbe which he worn when serving with the SS-VT Aufklarungs Abteilung in Beaver Vol 1). The specialist sub-units within infantry regiments worn white - see Bohmer's tunic with white waffenfarbe (when he was in the anti-tank company of "Deutschland") - also in Beaver. Of note, when Bohmer was transferred to the anti-tank abteilung of "Wiking", he would have worn pink waffenfarbe.

My thoughts anyway...

Mike

Also with all due respect, this is simply incorrect.

The unit that a soldier/officer was assigned had little or nothing to do with the piping that they wore. The waffenfarbe (I'll call it arms color or in American terms branch color) was assigned based on what the soldier was qualified, trained and classified as. This is why it existed. At glance (for example) a qualified medical, signal, artillery, admin, or special Mountian Infantry soldier would be identified/reconized.......Artillery qualified soldiers in Mountain divisions (just one example) wore red not green piping....it did not matter if the assignment was at Bn level, regimental level or Divisional level....this was always the case.

There are some pseudo exceptions and that is mainly when an entire unit is re-designated within a branch. A good and maybe the most common example is "recon"......which was traditionally a Cav. function (gold yellow piping) but in armor units recon normally wore pink piping....but in motorized units it could also wear brown piping.........

This was a confusing exception as the Cav regiments pretty much went away in the mid 1930s (many re-raised in the 42-43) but a recon function was still needed in all units....so a piping designation was prescribed along with the "A" cypher.

I can promise you that specialized support personnel always wore THEIR special branch color (signal, medical and a few others) regardless of what kind of units that they were assigned to.

[Eddie]

Interesting tunic and interesting thread full of info and no fights yet,that's really refreshing to see

[LuckyStrike23]

Also with all due respect, this is simply incorrect.

The unit that a soldier/officer was assigned had little or nothing to do with the piping that they wore. The waffenfarbe (I'll call it arms color or in American terms branch color) was assigned based on what the soldier was qualified, trained and classified as. This is why it existed. At glance (for example) a qualified medical, signal, artillery, admin, or special Mountian Infantry soldier would be identified/reconized......

I have to dissagree in that point. Within my bataillon (panzer) we had always a TO (technical officer) who normally had a maintenance training/ education. His normal branch colour was blue. All TOs I have seen changed their beret into black and their branch colour into pink when they were assigned to a panzer unit. Maybe because the combination black/ pink has a better standing than red/ blue within the army. In reverse no panzer man would change his black beret into a red one.
You are basicly right but I would not say it that total - there are many exceptions

[Mike C]

Phild,

What you are saying is, in my opinion, correct for those soldiers, NCOs and officers that received their entry-level basic training at one of the specialist schools - and from which were enrolled in or commissioned into that specific branch. However I believe that the vast majority of these personnel were then sent to the specialist abteilung of the SS-VT division and later W-SS divisions.

The specialist elements within the SS-VT regiments came from within those regiments. I have cited Bohmer's example previously - he came Deutschland as a regimental officer (see his tunic) and, by luck or choice, ended up in the PAK company - without any prior specialist training. His entire career was as an anti-tank officer but, when with Deutschland, he wore white - later pink when he was in the anti-tank battalion of Wiking. In short, he and the other members Deutschland's anti-tank company came from within the regiment and were not posted to the anti-tank company from specialist recruit schools. This appears true for the Heer as well. Gottlob Bidermann's very good autobiography seems to show images of him and others wearing white waffenfarbe when serving as anti-tank gunners within an infantry regiment of the 132 Infantry Division.

Again my thoughts. I am currently checking my references but what are your sources?

Mike

[John Pic]

RobertE based on the comments and the facts of the collar construction that you state and the faded piping I would say you have no worries in that uniform and now own a very unique SS officers uniform. I like it and your decent way of posting your thoughts managed to kill my skepticism.

[phild]

[QUOTE=Mike C;5985248]Phild,


Mike,

I am basing my coments on many period sources. As stated earlier this get tricky in some cases as Anti-Tank and Recon is a role and mission rather than a branch.....I do not doubt that an officer in an AT company that was part of an Infantry regiment wore white piping and perhaps Rosa if he was reassigned to another Divison (Wiking) where the AT color at that level was Rosa.

The issue in this case is the officer's career arms color being changed due to the designation of the regiment that he was assigned to....and I submit that it did not happen....unless he was tranfered to another arm.

Medical, Signal, Pioneer, Supply, Artillery and all other arms branches were comissioned as officers from those branches and so trained and so certified. There was for sure a good deal of re-branching to PZ as that grew from almost nothing to a huge force during the course of the war, but this is much different from a Signal officer or Medical officer being assigned to an Infantry (or PZ, CAV or Art) BN or RGT and then have wear the branch of Arm piping color for that Regt or BN.

It just did not work like that. A signal officer or a medical officer (just to use these 2 cases) could easily be assigned to 3 or 4 different branch of units during the course of WWII....many of them were that I have read about, they did not replace the yellow or blue piped boards with the color of the regiment that they were assigned to.....but often did wear the ciphers or number of that Regt.....but not always....esp. in the case of Medical officers.

I do acknowledge your example of the AT officer and I would think that similar situations existed with recon troops in some units as the arm color could and did change for many of those as well.

This is important as it has been discussed here before and is always confusing...it gets more confusing when we consider that many primary branch EM/NCO had secondary specialities!!

So an Infantry white piped wearing NCO could also be wearing a Signal blitz specialty sleeve insignia....he was still infantry but also had signal training....he might have or might not have worked directly for the Signal officer wearing lemon yellow piping who was assigned to the Infantry Regiment that this notional NCO was also assigned to!

Only because this is not confusing enough and my reponse is so short will I add that in the SS particulary all officers were trained first as basic combat officers...including Medical doctors. When the DF BN Cdr was kidnapped in June 44 (Kampfe??) the BN Medical officer...an SS doctor no doubt wearing blue board piping was put in command of the Pz GDr BN column until a replacement CDR could be found some days later.

[Mike C]

Phild,

I think you are right and that we are meeting in the middle. I would think that some of the specialist roles in a standard infantry regiment were filled by infantrymen with additional training - for the 37mm M36 PAK, 75mm Le IG 18 Howitzer, and reconnaissance in particular. Regimental pioneers (I would think) were also selected infantrymen given the comparatively simple tasks expected at that level. This is not at all dissimilar to modern infantry battalions which have anti-tank, pioneer and mortar platoons formed from infantrymen.

This being said, those technical roles requiring advanced knowledge and skill likely kept their distinctive waffenfarbe - medical and likely signals come to mind (here I am thinking of the Heer black wrappers with signals piping - which would almost certainly be for personnel of the regimental signals platoon). The FLAK and GRILLE platoons likely also kept their artillery waffenfarbe...

For the record, I find the tunic that stated this thread to be a little different but well within the realm of possibility.

Good discussion...

Mike

[phild]

Yes Mike we are very close on this now.

It is not always real clear. For instance we know that each division had a Signals, Recon, AT, Pioneer, and AA BN assigned as part of the division. I think that all agree that the soldiers in those BNs wore there respective barnch colors......but what about soldiers/officer's filling some of those roles and assigned perm. at the regimental or BN level? This maybe the area of question all along. For me when I look at the period TO&E schemas of the German Regiments and further down into the BNs, I see very few slots for non combat branch offciers (mainly a a doc for every BN and one more a rgt HQ and a Signal officer for the Rgt...not sure about BN level signal officer in the German army/SS.....and not many others come to mind.....most are at the Div level and not organic to the Rgts and below.....at least that is what I have seen.

[LuckyStrike23]

.not sure about BN level signal officer in the German army/SS.....

Today they would wear the bataillons branch colour in most of the cases. But i am not sure about the offical rule. To some extend its pointless to discuss offical rules. Especially officers are sometimes very creativ. In 12 years i have seen the stranges combinations of berets and branch colours...... I assume that was the case during WWII as well....