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    #1

    Gold SS-Police officer buckle

    I was walking past Craig Gottlieb's table at the SOS on Friday, when he called me over to look at a recent acquisition. He opened a small case and I was dumbfounded. There was a gold finish SS-Police officer buckle and two pieces of visor cap insignia with a similar gold finish. I will address the buckle as I have not done research on the cap insignia.

    For those not familiar with regulations of the RFSS and Chief of the German Police, on 13.2.1939 the SS-Feldbinde was authorized for police officers and officials of officer rank. These SS-Feldbinde were backed in either police mixed green or navy blue for the Water Police. For these brocade belt, the SS-Fuhrerschloss (officer buckles) in gold were authorized for use by generals, officials of general rank and officer of the Wasserschutzpolizei who were members of the SS. At the same time, Pol-Feldbindenschloss for the same group of general officers and members of the Water Police not members of the SS were authorized.

    Here is a view of the front and rear of this extraordinarily rare buckle. I know of only one other in a well known collection on the West Coast.





    These buckles could only have a short issue life as the use of the police brocade belt was terminated for the duration of the war in November 1941.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Originally posted by JoeW View Post
    I was walking past Craig Gottlieb's table at the SOS on Friday, when he called me over to look at a recent acquisition. He opened a small case and I was dumbfounded. There was a gold finish SS-Police officer buckle and two pieces of visor cap insignia with a similar gold finish. I will address the buckle as I have not done research on the cap insignia.

    For those not familiar with regulations of the RFSS and Chief of the German Police, on 13.2.1939 the SS-Feldbinde was authorized for police officers and officials of officer rank. These SS-Feldbinde were backed in either police mixed green or navy blue for the Water Police. For these brocade belt, the SS-Fuhrerschloss (officer buckles) in gold were authorized for use by generals, officials of general rank and officer of the Wasserschutzpolizei who were members of the SS. At the same time, Pol-Feldbindenschloss for the same group of general officers and members of the Water Police not members of the SS were authorized.

    Here is a view of the front and rear of this extraordinarily rare buckle. I know of only one other in a well known collection on the West Coast.





    These buckles could only have a short issue life as the use of the police brocade belt was terminated for the duration of the war in November 1941.
    In 43 years of collecting i never saw a General officers gold buckle.Great find!CDR

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      #3
      Wish I could of purchased it. But seeing it in hand was exciting.

      Comment

        #4
        Gold SS-Police officer buckle

        I saw the buckle in his case on Thursday. Everyone was tied up so I didn't get a hands on. Did the finish look period? There was a blue backed SS brocade on the collectors Guild a few years ago. I think it sold for around $4000. Match that up with this buckle and you wound really have something.

        Thanks for posting the photos.

        Kirby

        Comment

          #5
          Joe,

          Just a comment about construction. Why would the belt hole prongs be gold and the connector, whatever the correct term is, be bare metal. The connecting piece will show when the belt is worn. On every other gilt buckle I have seen these were gilt as well. This looks a bit odd to my eyes. That said I have never seen a gilt police officers buckle before.

          W. Unland

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            #6
            Gold SS-Police officer buckle

            I think your looking at an aluminum buckle and a zinc catch. I have had a Prison officials buckle that did the same thing.

            Comment

              #7
              OK, if you say it is not uncommon, but it still seems odd. Make a part that nobody will see gold, and a part that does show "zinc" colored. I also had a prison\forestry buckle, but the entire thing was gilt, EXCEPT for the belt prongs themselves.

              Just asking because this setup would not be particularly attractive when worn, and we all know how general officer do like to be stylish.

              But hey, I am a lowly police collector and make no claim to any knowledge about buckles.

              Thanks for the info,
              W.Unland

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by W.Unland View Post
                OK, if you say it is not uncommon, but it still seems odd. Make a part that nobody will see gold, and a part that does show "zinc" colored. I also had a prison\forestry buckle, but the entire thing was gilt, EXCEPT for the belt prongs themselves.

                Just asking because this setup would not be particularly attractive when worn, and we all know how general officer do like to be stylish.

                But hey, I am a lowly police collector and make no claim to any knowledge about buckles.

                Thanks for the info,
                W.Unland
                It looks to me like the gold finish wore off or was absorbed by the zinc, similar to late war zinc awards. Notice on the first picture there appears to be gold remains in the corner recess of the zinc frame.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Bill, the entire buckle was gold finished, but the gold oxidized from selective parts depending on the base metal. The two accompanying visor cap pieces (eagle and TK) were likewise zinc with mostly lost gold finish and fully gold finished prongs (not zinc). I can understand your skepticism, but it is right as rain in my book. And the photo I have of the other that came from the Dick Dieter collection years ago makes it ironclad.

                  KLR, I had a Water Police brocade, a maker's sample, but the catch on the belt was silver colored, not gold. I had sold it. The one that was on Collector's Guild had a similar buckle but it had lost a great deal of the finish. A great deal.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Gold SS-Police officer buckle

                    The keeper started off gold but has lost it's finish. Here is the prison buckle in the lower right. I sold the buckle so I don't have an individual photo. KirbyImageUploadedByTapatalk1362437931.550616.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1362437970.607130.jpg

                    Comment

                      #11
                      The set walked in on Thursday about 3 minutes after the show opened. Being the first table to the right of the door, I had the first opportunity to examine the set. Turns out a local "civilian" found it from a Craigslist ad for "military" artifacts.

                      The buckle was aluminum and was ANODIZED. The keeper was, as the above comments discerned, zinc. Over the decades, the gold on the zinc was absorbed, and only the gold on the buckle remained.

                      The cap insignia was the "clincher" - again, zinc cap insignia, where VERY little of the same gold anodizing remained. The prongs on the reverse, which were of course, not zinc, retained all the anodizing.

                      The entire set was brought back by one veteran, who obviously removed the pieces from one police general. The prongs on the hat and eagle devices showed signs of having been cap-removed, and not "from the factory."

                      According to Steve Wolfe, who was at my table when the set was purchased, there is only ONE other belt buckle like this, originating in the Dick Dieter collection. Nobody has EVER seen the hat insignia before. Pieter Verbruggen also stopped by to see the set, and is the one who helped me determine that the set had been anodized.

                      This set made the show for me, as it's something I have never seen before, and never knew existed. Thanks to Joe W for breaking the code on this set. What I still want to know ... I thought Police Generals wore POLICE insignia on their visors. Yet here is a set of visor insignia that are SS, but gold in color (or at least, started off in Gold). Thoughts?

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Accompanying gold finish SS officer visor insignia

                        Sorry to be slow in posting the visor cap insignia that accompanied the buckle Craig. Been getting back to normal.

                        Here is the front of the eagle/TK set. The flash on my son's camera eliminated the dark finish of the oxidized zinc and turned it to a grey. The true color and contrast with the remaining gold was startling.





                        The eagle is marked M1/72 and the TK is marked M1/24. You can see the prongs still have the gold finish. I have found no references in police regulations permitting SS general officer visor insignia to be worn on a police general visor or for a police general to wear an SS general officer visor. The purposes of this visor cap insignia is a mystery to me.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Joe and others,

                          Thank you for taking the time to explain the buckle's appearance to me. I do most humbly apologize for posting here, I hadn't realized that Joe's link took me into the SS forum where I definitely don't belong.


                          W.Unland
                          Last edited by W.Unland; 03-05-2013, 02:21 AM.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Buckle

                            It's a first for me..Fandamntastic! Butch

                            Comment

                              #15
                              This Enlisted Water Police buckle which used to be in my collection is in mint condition. It was never issued as the leather part had never been stitched and there was absolutely no wear. I'm posting this for finish comparison because as far as I can see the finish is the same as that which is on the general's buckle. I am also a police collector and have never seen a General's buckle before.
                              Jim

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