SS STUG Wrap

[ccnrecon]

One thing that must be addreseed is this: If we accept the fact that the unissued depot ss stug wraps exist in authentic form, there is an awful lot of different maker codes found in surviving examples. There must have been alot of different depots looted, all containing stug wraps. Then there are also unissued stug wraps that do not have shoulder board buttons installed or the bridles. Those certainly exist also. It may not be difficult to buy a stug wrap, but how hard are they to sell? Is 10k still a fair price for an unissued depot wrap? I really like the the example that started this thread. I do not stand in judgement of any wrap like these, as they need to be seen in hand, but my perception is many today offered on the net today are "too well made" if you catch my drift.

[Peter v L]

As the the tunic belonging to PvL, there are several things on that piece from the pics alone which I find fault with and do not like. The addition of the large fonts FOR ME is just one more item to be skeptical of.

It does not belong to me, is a consignment item.

Just becuse any selfproclaimed expert can voice any opinion on items we invest our own money in items which can not be debated. That does however not mean we do not think it is original.

We have totally different opinions here, I have only seen wrappers with the large font on what is IMO originls from this maker.

I also agree that the one marked 6/525 may not be the best reference. The fonts showed by Doug O is textbook large ones as is the 3/525 on our consignment piece.

However markings are as said before just a small part of the truth.

P

[Peter v L]

One thing that must be addreseed is this: If we accept the fact that the unissued depot ss stug wraps exist in authentic form, there is an awful lot of different maker codes found in surviving examples. There must have been alot of different depots looted, all containing stug wraps. Then there are also unissued stug wraps that do not have shoulder board buttons installed or the bridles. Those certainly exist also. It may not be difficult to buy a stug wrap, but how hard are they to sell? Is 10k still a fair price for an unissued depot wrap? I really like the the example that started this thread. I do not stand in judgement of any wrap like these, as they need to be seen in hand, but my perception is many today offered on the net today are "too well made" if you catch my drift.

The price is free, anyone can ask any price for an item he wish to sell.

But if you ask me, it is a insane price for an unissued totally uninteresting item, what can be more boring then a unworn stonemint tunic? Only my opinion tough!
I can for my life not understand how something which screams depot can be more worth then something screaming combat......

Only my opinion though. It takes all kinds to make a world!

P

[Fritz]

For what it's worth, I think these makers were regular businesses rather than makers within the camp system.

As far as all possible items are concerned the ss' demands could only be met to a rather small fraction by its camp system which consisted mostly of unskilled personal which is reflected by a number of features found in such "camp items". The ss relied throughout the war on private businesses as well - and I think these codes are such businesses.

[ccnrecon]

For a few who have chosen to take my opinion and put them OUT of context, let attempt to clarify:

I have yet in collecting to see ANY mid/late war M43 SS tunic, wrapper, or dot jacket, or winter for that matter, which exhibits these large fonts, that I believe is real. I will keep an open mind, and if anyone has one to show, I would gladly examine in person.


In more simpler terms for those that require them, I as of TODAY have not seen these large fonts on an SS combat uniform where I was of the opinion that the piece itself was AUTHENTIC. Is it possible? Most anything is. Have I seen one yet? NO.

What I also indicated was the piece on FMB I do not believe from the pictures is an original wrapper. Take a look also on that site at the Heer stug wrapper and the interfacing used in the shoulder area, the white material with the orange vertical stripes. Dont be surprised if you run across Janke wrappers using this same material, but, thats a horse of a quite different color.

As the the tunic belonging to PvL, there are several things on that piece from the pics alone which I find fault with and do not like. The addition of the large fonts FOR ME is just one more item to be skeptical of. Again, its for me consistent with the pattern which has been floating about in the last years, questionable manufacture of Stug wrappers with the large fonts.

Now, has anyone asked the next question, which begs yet another question...Clearly those industries making the STug wrappers, their pattern being identical to the black wrappers, would also have made the twin black wrapper with the accompanying fonts. Firm A in the Lodz Ghetto didnt get tasked to just make the stug wrappers, while Firm B in the warsaw ghettos only made the black ones. With the only difference being the black shoddy wool and the black lining german effeciency would seem to dictate that both these firms would be producing the same cloth item, just in a different color. I believe it makes sense. Yet, can anyone post a picture of a mid to late war black wrapper with these fonts? I have yet to see one.

Again, Im not saying it is NOT possible that such fonts were employed, I remain open to the possibility, yet, the two I have handled IN PERSON IMO were reproductions, skilled works, yet, not evidencing german mass production techniques found in most any other garment.

Here is a link to a maker code "7" stug wrap Bill had for sale awhile back. Also, here is a picture of another similarity marked example craig sold awhile back. With the large font "7's" in these two wraps, are these also what you consider large font wraps?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=stug+wrap

[ccnrecon]

Stug wrap markings...

[Willi Z.]

What a stunning wrap with such rock solid provenance! Meaning the one which is the subject of this thread, which seems to be getting off track. I have admired this wrap (was with my friend when he bought this from Bob) many times over the last dozen years or so. When I heard it might be moving I was extremely tempted to buy it, as items such as this seldom see the light of day, and I have never seen one “so right”.

Whoever ends up with it will have a superb piece.<O</O
<O</O

[Dr. Strangelove]

Font You!

My Font is bigger than your Font.

I like the Wrap.

[John Pic]

I would say that the Stug Wrap with the small font only that started this thread has a much better chance of being 100% original than the plethora of the others with large font numbers...rare items cannot be duplicated perfectly and usually the copies bare something found on a single original example...so perhaps the large font is legitimate...but the fact that so many are found with it is bothersome and when people say "Ive only seen" or "Ive never seen" I wonder how many years they have been involved in collecting and how many wraps they have actually held in hand...that were real and not post war fabricated from surplus materials. I trust a single example of a rare item that dates back further than 2000 over those that have "Surfaced" since...especially out of Europe as was pointed out in the "Fritz Witt-Heinz Macher Grouping thread...those that havent read that should. In many years of browsing auction catalogs by dealers before the internet in the late 70s through the early 90s I can remember maybe three SS stug wraps...if that...one being an LAH officers combat worn. A Rumanian friend of mine who was trained by old school German tailors said all anyone needs is a pattern and materials, perfect fakes are and can be made of uniforms and insignias for that matter. Janke makes perfect fakes they just all have a tell tale signature people associate with the brand.

[WEISNER]

Here is a link to the grouping John speaks about for the benifit of those that did not see it.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Fritz+Witt

We can't forget this one John!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Fritz+Witt

Kev

[Langemark]

Janke makes perfect fakes ...they just all have a tell tale signature people associate with the brand.

Janke makes just 'correct copies' and sells these as ... copies.
No serious collector/researcher can be deceived by Janke's made uniforms and caps. These are just good enough for re-enacting, no more.
Mark

[Scott A. Hess]

I would say that the Stug Wrap with the small font only that started this thread has a much better chance of being 100% original than the plethora of the others with large font numbers...rare items cannot be duplicated perfectly and usually the copies bare something found on a single original example...so perhaps the large font is legitimate...but the fact that so many are found with it is bothersome and when people say "Ive only seen" or "Ive never seen" I wonder how many years they have been involved in collecting and how many wraps they have actually held in hand...that were real and not post war fabricated from surplus materials. I trust a single example of a rare item that dates back further than 2000 over those that have "Surfaced" since...especially out of Europe as was pointed out in the "Fritz Witt-Heinz Macher Grouping thread...those that havent read that should. In many years of browsing auction catalogs by dealers before the internet in the late 70s through the early 90s I can remember maybe three SS stug wraps...if that...one being an LAH officers combat worn. A Rumanian friend of mine who was trained by old school German tailors said all anyone needs is a pattern and materials, perfect fakes are and can be made of uniforms and insignias for that matter. Janke makes perfect fakes they just all have a tell tale signature people associate with the brand.

I find myself agreeing with most of what has been written above. I dont hold myself out to be an expert in these things, I can only comment as to what my years of collecting points the way to good or less than desireable pieces. One caveat, while one may qualify an opinion of another one way or another do to the number of a particular item one has handled, one cannot handle dozens of original items which simply are not out there.
I have handled three ss camo face veils, but yet dozens of dot pattern items of cloth. Why? Original dot items exist in a quantity which lends them to being available at most any show to be examined, SS face veils do not.
SS Stug wrapper fall within this catagory, and conversely, 99 percent of those you can handle at shows are reproductions, and thats assuming there is even one original piece at a show. I can remember examining one at the MAX a few years ago which I liked, thats it. All one can do is take what one learns from other areas, army, airforce, and other mass produced items, and look for the signs.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see a period photo of some SS tanker with his jacket wide open and the markings caught for all to see in splendid detail, nor was I present when they were being stamped. Perhaps authentic ones exist with this quirky font size/type. It is possible, I just have not seen ones that fall into this niche that looked right despite this attribute.
I still would like to see other pieces of SS combat clothing which exhibit these markings...to date I have not, they seem to fall squarely in the wrapper section, under fieldgrey, and not in the black wrappers, nor the dot camo, nor the M43's, nor the M42. nor the winter clothing. Large fonts exist in SS size stampings, yet, the rest I have not yet seen.
If its out there, please show us some photos. I would like to continue learning.

[John Pic]

Janke makes just 'correct copies' and sells these as ... copies.
No serious collector/researcher can be deceived by Janke's made uniforms and caps. These are just good enough for re-enacting, no more.
Mark

Yes you have said it better than I.....but no is decieved not because the copies are not good enough only because they are made in volume and not aged and have been for years...long enough to be recognized as fake...if you ever saw an early Janke made tunic from the 1960s it is very difficult to tell from a real tunic except for some trends they followed in making them.

[DougO]

The 3/525 wrap on PvL's site and the 6/525 wrap on the FMB site are not the only '525' examples that we've seen. There was also one posted here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=525

Despite the large font markings on this wrap, Scott Hess appears in post #328 to indicate that he believes this wrap could be original. Scott, please correct me if I have misunderstood your post.

Mr.Singer's comments on that 525 wrap can be seen in the thread as well.

Not to say that all '525' marked wraps are original or fake. Perhaps John Pic is correct, that there are some original large-font wraps, and others that are fakes trying to immitate the originals. One thing is certain, viewing all three makes for some interesting comparisons.

[Mike Davis]

We see variation in marking of SS wraps. Some with three letter codes, some without. Some with the same size font, some without.

Although I do think that high-end copies of SS wraps have been made, I don't agree with the suggestion that wraps with large font markings are necessarily bad.

Why? One reason is that I owned such a marked example in the early '70s. Attached is a scan of an old photo made at that time of an unissued example. I can't remember the exact composition of the markings but I do recall the large font.

Unfortunately I do not have a photo of the markings so you will have to trust me. And of course I realize, based on a few of the comments here, that some of you will never extend that confidence. That's OK.