SS STUG Wrap

[Fritz]

Is hbt the primary lining material one should look for in a late war stug wrap?

That depends on your definition of "late war". But, no. It is what you will encounter in the greater part of fakes though.

[Peter v L]

For the suddenly skeptical Swedish contingent, let me state unequivocally that the linked wrap is an accepted original. It was purchased by Bob Johnson of Battlefield Books in Minneapolis from an estate sale in 1978. I have a note from him on his letterhead explaining these facts. The wrap was displayed for many years at the SoS and other shows where I, and many others, had the opportunity to examine it. Some of you will remember this.

As to the markings, wide variation in fonts, sizes, etc. have been observed in wartime made examples. Posted are photos of another example that has been in my possession since the '80s - note the font size and the lack of three letter maker code.

In respect to the other unnamed anomalies, I'd be happy to address them once presented.

Mike,

I remember a US black wrapper with provenance back to a US prison camp......which turned out to be the dud of the century.

US provenance means nothing to me, only the item in it self does.

I don´t say your wrapper starting this thread or the one above is fake (the one above I have no problem with at all as a matter of fact), I am just sceptic due to the fact I never ever seen a maker mark in the same font as the size markings on any SS or other tunic.

SS M43 tunics late war can have markings like 544, 545 etc in the same font, but that is not the maker it is the date of manufacture.

I am done discussing this one, as it is not possible to do so on this forum, it just ends in irritation and I try to stay away from that now-a-days.

I am sure your wrapper will find a new home without my blessing anyhow!

Regards

Peter

[Fritz]

I am, as many other people are, quite reluctant in sharing my observations but my scepticism is not based on a mere gut feeling.

We know from COAs or other paperwork from very respected dealers what they are worth in the end. - Note that I claim nothing, I am merely saying that wrapper (advertised here) gives me concerns.



BTW: The wrapper that started this thread is an Oberscharführer's wrapper and not, as advertised, a Hauptscharführer's one. - No big deal.

The other one posted here is also an Oberscharführer. This rank (as well as Unterscharführer etc.) rings an extra bell to me as it is an easy to acquire rank for either a complete fake or a restored item. - Tabs with litze are quite hard to find (or to make ). And NCO ranks are probably the most sought after by collectors.

Of course items with other rank tabs don't have to be real or untouched and vice versa.



Let me make that very clear: I do think that Mr. Davis has a very nice selection of very fine items but I don't like each and every piece he offers. I am yet to find the dealer who does.

Cheers

[Peter v L]

The difference of opinion here is structured much like the well-known discussion of the Pz. Pionier wrapper; one or two European dealers and their circle of friends on the one side and the rest of the collecting world on the other.

In your dreams mate......rather the opposite, a bunch of US know-it-alls I would raher say.....

[Peter v L]

The font size doesn't seem to be the sole detail in contention.

fantastic, finally a wise word from you!

[Peter v L]

Could indulge in some skepticism...

I think you need to study as you do so on a definate 100% original marking

Good buy all.......

I am done now in this thread

P

[Peter v L]

Let me make that very clear: I do think that Mr. Davis has a very nice selection of very fine items but I don't like each and every piece he offers. I am yet to find the dealer who does.

Cheers

Agreed to 100%

PvL

[ccnrecon]

One stug wrap is marked 6/525. If the three digit code is the maker, why then the slash proceded by the six. Would the six be a particular building (6) located within a particular facility (525)?

[ccnrecon]

Wait a minute. Peters wrap is marked 3/525. It would indicate then that his and the one on marshals baton were made in the same facility, hence the 525. They were just made in a different building, assuming that is the meaning of the number that proceeds the slash. It would be great to examine them both in hand to look at similarities/differences. To see two wraps from the same facility for sale at the same time would have to be an infrequent occurence to say the least.

[Fritz]

Wait a minute. Peters wrap is marked 3/525. It would indicate then that his and the one on marshals baton were made in the same facility, hence the 525. They were just made in a different building, assuming that is the meaning of the number that proceeds the slash. It would be great to examine them both in hand to look at similarities/differences. To see two wraps from the same facility for sale at the same time would have to be an infrequent occurence to say the least.

The real meaning of that code is un-known. It is, however, most likely as you say that the 3 digit code is a maker. The number behind or in front of a slash is, IMO, either a production line, shift or a subcontractor. They also exist with roman numbers.

There was speculation prior as to the 3 digit code being an item number but that is not possible IMO.

Again, I am by no means experienced with wrappers but I would not use the polizei Oberscharführer (note the rank) to compare it to anything.

Cheers

[viva_giulio]

i can only say that a wrap is 5 times more difficult to made than m43 or 44 or 42 tunic but we find thousand problems in every wrap textbook in construction and never in other tunics... pratically for someone didn't exist quite any original wrap!

collectors trust than only 3 items were made perfectly:

stug wrap
camo m43 cap
camo cover

why we didn't find a super fake on m43 or m42 or m37 or m36 or m44 tunic... is still a question unsolved.

Repeat if someone makes these fakes could make everything.

I don't like ALL wraps but i'm sure that it isn't possible that all wraps are bad.

If we discuss an item about size stamp and it is the only feature to judge it fake.... stop collection and buying.

[Scott A. Hess]

Agreed, I never seen a original 627 wrapper where the makers mark have been in the same font and size as the wrappers sizemarkings.

I have also never seen a wrapper or any garnment with the RBNo in the same font or size as the garnments sizemarkings.

I am highly sceptic about this one. There are also other features which makes me sceptic but as not to help fakers I will keep these to myself.

Cheers
Peter


Peter, merely parroting what I said to include the 627 wrappers is not a very convincing argument, but rather, it is reminiscent of the type of logic one would find batted about on a gradeschool back lot. Far from clever, and adds nothing of any value.

[Peter v L]

Agreed, I never seen a original 627 wrapper where the makers mark have been in the same font and size as the wrappers sizemarkings.

I have also never seen a wrapper or any garnment with the RBNo in the same font or size as the garnments sizemarkings.

I am highly sceptic about this one. There are also other features which makes me sceptic but as not to help fakers I will keep these to myself.

Cheers
Peter


Peter, merely parroting what I said to include the 627 wrappers is not a very convincing argument, but rather, it is reminiscent of the type of logic one would find batted about on a gradeschool back lot. Far from clever, and adds nothing of any value.

Like most of your posts then!

Peter

[Scott A. Hess]

For a few who have chosen to take my opinion and put them OUT of context, let attempt to clarify:

I have yet in collecting to see ANY mid/late war M43 SS tunic, wrapper, or dot jacket, or winter for that matter, which exhibits these large fonts, that I believe is real. I will keep an open mind, and if anyone has one to show, I would gladly examine in person.


In more simpler terms for those that require them, I as of TODAY have not seen these large fonts on an SS combat uniform where I was of the opinion that the piece itself was AUTHENTIC. Is it possible? Most anything is. Have I seen one yet? NO.

What I also indicated was the piece on FMB I do not believe from the pictures is an original wrapper. Take a look also on that site at the Heer stug wrapper and the interfacing used in the shoulder area, the white material with the orange vertical stripes. Dont be surprised if you run across Janke wrappers using this same material, but, thats a horse of a quite different color.

As the the tunic belonging to PvL, there are several things on that piece from the pics alone which I find fault with and do not like. The addition of the large fonts FOR ME is just one more item to be skeptical of. Again, its for me consistent with the pattern which has been floating about in the last years, questionable manufacture of Stug wrappers with the large fonts.

Now, has anyone asked the next question, which begs yet another question...Clearly those industries making the STug wrappers, their pattern being identical to the black wrappers, would also have made the twin black wrapper with the accompanying fonts. Firm A in the Lodz Ghetto didnt get tasked to just make the stug wrappers, while Firm B in the warsaw ghettos only made the black ones. With the only difference being the black shoddy wool and the black lining german effeciency would seem to dictate that both these firms would be producing the same cloth item, just in a different color. I believe it makes sense. Yet, can anyone post a picture of a mid to late war black wrapper with these fonts? I have yet to see one.

Again, Im not saying it is NOT possible that such fonts were employed, I remain open to the possibility, yet, the two I have handled IN PERSON IMO were reproductions, skilled works, yet, not evidencing german mass production techniques found in most any other garment.

[Scott A. Hess]

Like most of your posts then!

Peter

Peter, if my posts make no sense, then simply ignore them, move one, and get on with your life. Dont waste your time with the opinions of someone such as myself who obviously does not know what he is talking about. Why you should aggravate yourself in your daily life with the simple yet erroneous opinions of someone like me is baffling.