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    #76
    Originally posted by Don D. View Post
    Given that the impact marks on the wall are only 2 feet off the ground I doubt they were stood up there and shot. Looks like a typical collection point for the dead awaiting burial to me. Sorry to ruin the love fest but that is all I see.
    When you look closer you will see two in the upper left section of the picture. There may well be more, just not covered by the dimensions of the picture.

    I believe they opened fire and those guys, in reflex or due to hits, went down. This, however, wouldn't cause the fire to cease and the shooter(s) had to aim lower.

    Only few guys, that aren't tied to some pole or sort of, will keep standing once the shooting starts...most will look for cover even if there is none.

    Comment

      #77
      Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post
      And:

      Even (especially?!) on dead SS the uniforms look much more attractive - even heroic - than any other enemy whether dead or alive.

      Not even a saluting general of the US Navy in full parade uniform can compete in elegance with a simple shot EM of SS.
      Deutschland uber alles,,, Hooah!!!

      Comment

        #78
        page 78 should give some insite https://digital.library.txstate.edu/...6/fulltext.pdf

        the guy wearing the panzer warp is not the same guy in the cap if you look more close

        Comment

          #79
          Just in the area where I grew up (district of Paderborn and Höxter - former district of Büren and Warburg being incorporated meanwhile) a number of about 200 german soldiers - mainly Waffen-SS - were "shot out of hand" as the war diary of the 3rd US division ("Spearhead") calls it.

          They died while and after being captured via numerous ways, many been beaten to death by rifles and alike, 13 of them next to my village being found handcuffed and executed via shots in the neck - the youngest was 16.
          Another killed german soldier was found shot at the street nearby leading into the forest.

          A memorial stone in shape of a cross with 14 little iron crosses incorporated has been placed where it happened.

          The last time I shared this info the thread got deleted - maybe now it has a chance.

          For those who might be interested here is the full story - unfortunately only in german language:

          http://www.erkeln.de/heimatstube/13totesoldaten.htm
          Last edited by Thorsten B.; 05-15-2012, 02:50 PM. Reason: Additional info

          Comment

            #80
            Originally posted by Don D. View Post
            Too bad. They should have fought harder then.
            Don,
            honestly this sounds rather cynical to me. Are we going to say from now on that those killed in Le Paradis or elsewhere should have been fighting harder?

            When saying such things about german POWs that were murdered (apart from this residual case here such things happened) it is widely accepted and tolerated, vice versa it is a huge problem. I think this is not right and double standard in a way.

            As for an order, I think there was an order from some US general in late 44 or early 45 that ordered his men to shoot german snipers once they were taken POWs....or better yet the order said something like not to take them prisoner.

            The Kommissarbefehl should not be mixed in here, not in order to belittle it but because it, from a german point of view, dealt with "non-combatants" which is an extra topic. The whole situation on the eastern front was different, with way less useful legal regulation as far as POWs were concerned. So was it in japan.


            Cheers

            Comment

              #81
              No one has shown any evidence that these people were POWs that were executed. Even the one in the After the Battle series may very well have been legal kills. Removing weapons and equipment would have been SOP prior to burial. You guys are seeing things that may or may not be there and spouting them as fact. I guess you can even tell what they had for dinner the night before.

              Of course, no downed airmen were ever killed by the peace loving populace either......
              pseudo-expert

              Comment

                #82
                Supposedly there was an order to all troops landing at Normandy not to take prisoners for the first two weeks because they didn't have facilities for them; however, there are pictures of German POWs taken in the beach area. Anybody ever see the order NOT to take prisoners?

                Combat is the most stressful man-made environment. It brings out the best in some and the worst in others. Killings happened all the time during actual battles, but in some cases there was somebody who ordered POWs (and in some cases civilians accused of being partisans) killed and villages destroyed. War is legal murder!!! We wrap the flag around it and justify it and then expect everybody to OBEY THE RULES OF WAR!!!

                Comment

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Don D. View Post
                  No one has shown any evidence that these people were POWs that were executed. Even the one in the After the Battle series may very well have been legal kills. Removing weapons and equipment would have been SOP prior to burial. You guys are seeing things that may or may not be there and spouting them as fact. I guess you can even tell what they had for dinner the night before.

                  Of course, no downed airmen were ever killed by the peace loving populace either......
                  Hello Don,

                  read the link that Judas has highlighted in post number 78. Ironically page 78 of the thesis and study into this would explain the photo which started this thread and what happened on that day.

                  I recommend all reading this to have a look,

                  Chris

                  Comment

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Don D. View Post
                    No one has shown any evidence that these people were POWs that were executed. Even the one in the After the Battle series may very well have been legal kills. Removing weapons and equipment would have been SOP prior to burial. You guys are seeing things that may or may not be there and spouting them as fact. I guess you can even tell what they had for dinner the night before.
                    perhaps there is no firm evidence (yet) for the picture that started this thread but sadly Don there is a plethora of evidence pointing to plenty of other German POWs being killed by american troops in the course of the war in Europe and you know it.


                    all conveniently swept under the carpet of course

                    where as of course if/when axis troops are involved in any sort of mistreatment/killing of american prisoners it is held up as a candle of outrage and repulsion triggering a crusade for those involved to be brought to "justice".

                    maybe the americans at Malmedy etc should have fought harder Don>?! Just using your logic of course.
                    Last edited by DaveNZ; 05-15-2012, 09:42 PM. Reason: typos

                    Comment

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post
                      Just in the area where I grew up (district of Paderborn and Höxter - former district of Büren and Warburg being incorporated meanwhile) a number of about 200 german soldiers - mainly Waffen-SS - were "shot out of hand" as the war diary of the 3rd US division ("Spearhead") calls it.

                      They died while and after being captured via numerous ways, many been beaten to death by rifles and alike, 13 of them next to my village being found handcuffed and executed via shots in the neck - the youngest was 16.
                      Another killed german soldier was found shot at the street nearby leading into the forest.

                      A memorial stone in shape of a cross with 14 little iron crosses incorporated has been placed where it happened.

                      The last time I shared this info the thread got deleted - maybe now it has a chance.

                      For those who might be interested here is the full story - unfortunately only in german language:

                      http://www.erkeln.de/heimatstube/13totesoldaten.htm
                      Thank you for sharing Thorsten ... really sad though

                      Comment

                        #86
                        Originally posted by Don D. View Post
                        I'd like to see that policy in writing please.
                        your logic is flawed Don. it is well known that "hard" orders are often not communicated in written form yet these orders are just as real and acted on.

                        Comment

                          #87
                          I Agree with the lined up execution theory. The Crutch as pointed out in that position under the arm, shows it's not a body dump or last stand.

                          However the scene could have been altered or moved around, boots taken off etc before the photo.

                          Kelly

                          Comment

                            #88
                            Originally posted by Don D. View Post

                            Of course, no downed airmen were ever killed by the peace loving populace either......


                            If you start a thread that deals with downed allied airmen that were illegally killed by "axis civilians" and then someone mentions the illegal killing of german POWs he will immediately be called an apologist but vice versa that same argumentation is well accepted it seems.

                            To me that's double standards.

                            Cheers

                            Comment

                              #89
                              Not at all. Again, you guys are all interpreting a photo based upon your particular ideological slant. Some of you are constantly drawn to these types of threads. What does that say about you?

                              I already said that it is common knowledge that the allies had instances of shooting POWs. Yet, who were the vast majority of Germans trying to reach for surrender towards the end of the war? Not the Russians that's for sure. If the western allies were so bad you would think the Germans would have chosen to go down fighting. But they didn't. They knew they had a better chance of survival surrendering to the west.

                              Still, no one has shown a written order by any commander of rank that ordered the shooting of prisoners/taking of no prisoners. Yet several people have alluded to it. Show me the money. But then again, innuendo presented as evidence fits in well with apologist theory of "they were just as bad as the Germans." I would wager that the flying courts-martial that the Germans used to keep up moral killed more people than did GIs shooting prisoners. But, like all of you and the picture above, I have no hard evidence to prove this.
                              The Germans on the other hand had written orders on whom to shoot.

                              And yes Dave, the GIs killed by Peiper's men should have fought harder and because of that deed the rest of them did.
                              pseudo-expert

                              Comment

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Don D. View Post
                                Not at all.
                                We have had that on this forum a number of times before: German POWs killed = "All ok, based on what "they" did."

                                IMO that is wrong and should be dealt with accordingly.

                                Originally posted by Don D. View Post
                                Again, you guys are all interpreting a photo based upon your particular ideological slant.
                                Don, with respect, I don't get the feeling that your own view on this matter is to the maximum extent objective.


                                In the end, ideology aside, one "side" must be right and I'd prefer to be on the side that is "right". I think the arguments of those who believe in an execution, count. I, for one, am not convinced by the arguments of those that think that what we can see here is merely a collecting point for KIAs or the result of regular combat etc..

                                Apart from this case here it is a common tactic though to make people with unpleasant views stand in he corner that fits the tacticians agenda. In this scenario here that would be the far right corner. But of course I can't see that tactic being used here.

                                Granted, ideology plays a role, more or less...yet it does on all sides as we can see. It doesn't change the facts though.

                                Cheers

                                Comment

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