Deutschland cufftitle, opinions wanted.

[MilitaryAntique]

Hi guys!

There has been raised a question of authenticity regarding this EM/NCO´s RZM Deutschland Blockscript Cufftitle.

We got it in a group, together with the flatwire blockscript seen in the first picture, as well as photos and some other items from this soldier.

In our opinion it is a textbook original, but we would like to hear what the SS-cufftitle experts thinks?

Thank you, any input appriciated!

[Lassi]

Looks correct to me. I don´t consider myself an expert but have handled a few cuffs during the years.

Regards
Lars.

[Ian Hulley]

Looks fine to me too.

Ian

[Felix]

The style of lettering makes me worried too.
I have never seen another Deutschland cuff in this style of lettering. The serifs are sooo overdone and long. The compressed u and the shape of the a. The black band is real though.

All in all not a cuff title I would have bought.

//Felix

[MilitaryAntique]

The style of lettering makes me worried too.
I have never seen another Deutschland cuff in this style of lettering. The serifs are sooo overdone and long. The compressed u and the shape of the a. The black band is real though.

All in all not a cuff title I would have bought.

//Felix

Hi Felix!

Okay so the band itself is according to you original, and we think we can agree that the partial RZM-tag on the band probably is original?

Since the band is original and the group came directly from the family and had never been in a collection before we bought it, do you think that it was "tailor-embroideried" (not factory embroidered) during the war? Or do you think that the soldier let the original band get embroidered by someone after the war?

Since no collectors have owned it prior to us and we have not embroidered it. It would be interesting to hear your further opinion about this cufftitle.

Thank you very much.

[besslein]

a bit uncommon in construction,but i vote for original title,from my point of viev its real deal.

[Fritz]

a bit uncommon in construction,but i vote for original title,from my point of viev its real deal.

I would agree here. I understand Felix' concern but to me it looks ok.

[Felix]

Hi Felix!

Okay so the band itself is according to you original, and we think we can agree that the partial RZM-tag on the band probably is original?

Since the band is original and the group came directly from the family and had never been in a collection before we bought it, do you think that it was "tailor-embroideried" (not factory embroidered) during the war? Or do you think that the soldier let the original band get embroidered by someone after the war?

Since no collectors have owned it prior to us and we have not embroidered it. It would be interesting to hear your further opinion about this cufftitle.

Thank you very much.

Yes, the band material is original. Hard to say anything about the remains of the rzm tag as its only remains.

As always, buy the item, not the story. I do not mean to sound like a smart ass, but there has been so many "vet finds" with questionable items that one cant count any longer. So, when reaching a conclusion if a cuff title, or another piece of insignia -especially SS, is original or not one has to be very careful about vet provenance as prof of originality. I never use that myself. I use technical construction and comparisons with known originals - "in to details".

With that said, the normal Deutschland enlisted rzm style cuff, differs vastly from the one you posted. That is why this cuff title would not be for me, even if it is a factory fault (or even a one time seen rare version). There are several cuff titles which are fake that has been embroidered on real war time black bands. However that mostly goes for bullion work. The frequent numbered Allg SS cuff titles makes a fine base for a fake as they cost very little and are all over the place.

If you use the search engine you find many excamples of original Deutschland cuff titles - and I bet that you wont find another one like yours.

Thats enough for me to remain cold about this cuff.

When collecting SS one has to be Extra - and I cant even stress that enough - Careful not to get burnt.

Cheers
//Felix

P.s. The Latin Flat wire band looks very nice

[Peter v L]

The frequent numbered Allg SS cuff titles makes a fine base for a fake as they cost very little and are all over the place.

I understand the concerns for not being textbook. But the Allg SS numbered cufftitles all over the place are stone mint, this is a very well worn one and it have oxidized strands on both sides which only happened from wear, sweat and soiling.

Do you really think somone could use such a well worn Allg SS numbered band and then re emobrodery it to a D block script which are not exactly as the one or two known types, doing it all the correct way looking at the embrodery. Then also decide to do it atypical and to a band which don´t even have a high value, acctually with the work which should have been done not much over the original Allg SS numbered band.

I think it is sound to be careful and to decide to just collect textbook, nothing wrong with that.

But what are the chances that someone take a perfectly original group with a expensive flatwire cufftitle, try hard to find a well worn Allg SS numbered band, then take of the number, re-embrodery it the wrong way to a cost and to a band with a low value to put it in a group which would not be the least more sellable with it inside?

We have to be careful and sometime a little paranoid, but we have to use logic at all times.

As the band is original in it self, the band is used and show oxidation and wear, would be interesting to see if someone else have exactly this type of embrodereid one

Peter v L

[Felix]

I understand the concerns for not being textbook. But the Allg SS numbered cufftitles all over the place are stone mint, this is a very well worn one and it have oxidized strands on both sides which only happened from wear, sweat and soiling.

Firstly, thanks for understanding my concerns and I think more members shares this as well as we are talking about quite different cuff title than the norm.

Secondly I do not claim it to be a stripped Allg SS cuff title, but merely as an example to show that all original bands does not mean it is an original cuff title.

Thirdly, its not a big thing to fake age. Letters on the cuff title also "show age" Wash machine, lemon juice and other things...

Fourth; are you the "finder"? (shown by Stockholm militaria?) Not that important, just curious.

Do you really think somone could use such a well worn Allg SS numbered band and then re emobrodery it to a D block script which are not exactly as the one or two known types, doing it all the correct way looking at the embrodery. Then also decide to do it atypical and to a band which don´t even have a high value, acctually with the work which should have been done not much over the original Allg SS numbered band.

Peter, I never claimed that, just wrote the possibility as an example - see above for explaination. I can not explain it either - I just can state that the cuff title in question is very far off the lettering of what we know are original Deutschland cuff titles. I am sure many members also remembers the six versus seven strand debate - and infact the six strand black base bands shows all characteristics of orginality except "the six strands". Now, thats a side track, but also to be taken into the context of collecting SS cuff titles.

I think it is sound to be careful and to decide to just collect textbook, nothing wrong with that.

Yes, thats the way I do my collecting. Better safe than sorry. With that said I do not claim the band in question to be fake, but so far of the norm that extra cautions is Very Much needed! The old saying about burden of prof... and again not for me...

But what are the chances that someone take a perfectly original group with a expensive flatwire cufftitle, try hard to find a well worn Allg SS numbered band, then take of the number, re-embrodery it the wrong way to a cost and to a band with a low value to put it in a group which would not be the least more sellable with it inside?

Chances are very slim, I agree - but again this cuff title is far off what is known - and looks quite strange. Not for the faint hearted.

We have to be careful and sometime a little paranoid, but we have to use logic at all times.

Logic has almost no part when collecting SS, knowledge has! And knowledge again... I do not mean to sound like a smart ass, but thats really how it is. I have learned the hard way and studied the topic for several thousands of hours - and by this no bragging - just a lot of hard work. I also would like to compare with other SS Rzm bands, and they do differ in style. We have several Nordlands, Wikings and Das Reich's as well as Reinhard Heydrich's and others. But no cuff titles shares this style - In my experience of course. The only cuff title I can think of that has these long overdone serifs if the mysterious "DACHAU" cuff title, that I sadly missed out on a few years ago. Or perhaps not so sad that I missed it.

As the band is original in it self, the band is used and show oxidation and wear, would be interesting to see if someone else have exactly this type of embrodereid one.

If another similar band with solid provenance shows up, that would be very interesting. I for sure would have learned something new. Thats means it is very good. But I would not be surprised if it does not show up...

Ok, my opinions. No one has to take that seriously if they do not want. Its me and my knowledge. Many knows what they like to collect and I am part of that club.

Peter v L

Cheers peter
//Felix

[C. Betz]

Cuff Title

I think it's a good one also. Here's another one: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...f+title&page=4 See post 51

Charles Betz

[Felix]

Charles, in all respect, thats not the version we discuss in this thread. Thats the normal Deutschland.

best
//Felix

[TomH]

With respect, I don't think the band shown on Lorenz's tunic is anything like the one in this thread - the "S", "C" and "a" alone are screamingly different and crude by comparison.

Theh original post stated that in their opinion this is a text book original. It certainly cannot be considerd textbook - but that doesn't make it not original.

The dilemma is that as Peter states - why go to all the trouble of making/faking this - a relatively inexpensive and common band - and the fact that noone seems to be able to produce another like it might indicate a one off or small run. This is important because the costs of setting up a fake RZM band like this would be relatively high enough to need a good run to justify it. Certainly more than a higher value bullion HE band which can (and are) be produced as "one-off's".

Separately, I can't say that the loose threads on the reverse thrill me, the ones on originals seem more subtle - almost inperceptable on some.

For me, if this group remains intact the issue of origianlity is more minor as the flatwire cuffband (which is undoubtedly a text book original) and the photos carry it. If the intention is to split and sell the RZM separately, expect a reduced price as the buyer will have issues if they ever want to sell.

In short - it may well be an original band but I would not buy it unless I wanted the grouping.

hope that makes sense.

Tom

[Martin Stiles]

ct

Original!