General Seyffard and de Ruyter cuff titles

[ben haynes]

Hello to all please coud anyone help me im trying to find out if the General seyffard and de Ruyter cuff titles were issued to the Ducth waffen ss Nederland division ,been looking on net with not much luck are there any wartime pictures with in in wear? sorry for asking so much, thanks to anyone who helps kind regards Ben

[NickG]

SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division started as a Brigade strength unit called "Nederland" Division.. The brigade was to consist of two Panzer Grenadier regiments.
The two Regiments were granted honorary titles, the 48th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Regiment "General Seyffardt" in honor of a murdered Dutch (Pro German) general
(who was involved with the formation the the earlier Nederland Freiwilligen legioen)
and the 49th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Regiment de Ruyter, named after the seventeenth-century famous Dutch Admiral Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter.

Added to this core force was Aufklarung (Reconnaissance), Pioneer, Signals, Panzerjäger and Artillery components as follows:
SS Artillery Regiment 54
SS Signals Battalion 54
SS Panzerjäger Battalion 54
SS Pionier Battalion 54


The "De Ruyter" (also spelled De Ruiter) Regiment was issued both embroidered (RZM pattern) and BeVo weave cuff titles.

The "Gen Seyffardt" Regiment on the other hand was only officially granted the BeVo weave type cuff title...If embroidered it was unofficial private purchase (Dutch made?)

The parent unit "Nederland" Brigade staff members and all of its support components (SS Art. Reg 54, SS Signals Bat 54, SS-Pzjäger Bat54, SS Pionier Bat 54)
would have used the "Nederland" (BeVo weave only) cuff title. This in theory at least.
I have never seen period images of the Nederland cuff title in wear though...but plenty were manufactured...

Here a Pz jager officer impression with the proper Nederland BeVo cufftitle (as it lended support to both Gen.Seyffardt and De Ruyter Regiments), aBrigade (later Division)
component with parent cuff title in use as was planned!
Proof of period use out there? Anybody?

[ben haynes]

thank you very much for the info on the Nederland waffen ss unit, and yeah the same i have never seen a nederland cuff title being worn picture, but would love to see one, i also belive the nederland division were not issued national arm shields?? regards Ben

[NickG]

thank you very much for the info on the Nederland waffen ss unit, and yeah the same i have never seen a nederland cuff title being worn picture, but would love to see one, i also belive the nederland division were not issued national arm shields?? regards Ben

Correct, unlike the Danes, Norwegians, French, Latvians, Estonians,Albanians etc... no photographic proof has surfaced yet of Dutch troops wearing the (final) Dachau pattern
Nederland shield for some reason... Supply problems? ANYBODY?
On the other hand plenty of images exist of earlier "Leg.Niederlande" shields and flags of various patterns being worn but for some reason that all stopped when "Div.Nederland"
was formed! A curious thing...Why? (same can be said of Div. Landstorm Nederland)
Can anybody elaborate further on this? It has intrigued me too!

[ben haynes]

would legion vets keep there national shields when they moved to the brigade, division? was that allowed? kind regards Ben

[NickG]

would legion vets keep there national shields when they moved to the brigade, division? was that allowed? kind regards Ben

Most likely tollerated if done. I know that for example in Wiking (many nationalities) the Estonians proudly wore their national arm shields...

Dutchmen Johannes (Hans) Havic and Casper Sporck (both Dutch Knights Cross winners) both did NOT serve in "Dutch" units, Havic in "Polizei Division" and Sporck in "Nordland",
and both did NOT wear Dutch nationality shields... So if it was not done necessarily based on their nationality...

Even full Germans (cadre members) wore Croatian shields in Handschar and were not Croatian...it became a unit "uniform" look, not necessarily a nationality indicator (of the person).
So based on the handschar method (assumption) I guess theoretically a Reichs-Deutchse from Hungary in a Dutch unit could have worn a Dutch shield... ???? It gets confusing!
but they probably did not!

[NickG]

I am straying a little bit (and have shown this before) ...anyway worth revisiting!
Here's another interesting image concerning the wear of foreign unit insignia by a German national!

Some might disagree but I believe this to be a German national, a LW reconnaisance pilot of a light observation plane (like a Fischler Storch)
and in that capacity attached to a Waffen SS unit like Prinz Eugen or Handschar as their "eyes in the sky" during a anti partisan operation.

So he is not Croatian at all, but was "awarded" this SS design Croatian shield patch for duties with the Waffen SS during an anti partisan sweep.

This Croatian shield unofficially became a "badge of honor" for anti partisan operations and as such worn by many Germans (outside of Handschar/Prinz Eugen units)
as an award for past "einsatzstaffel" service in the war against irregulars (bandenkampf).

So basically used as a campaign sleeve shield award, like a Krim shield, but it was not an official practice... !

Some still might suggest he is just a Croatian Luftwaffe staffel pilot but those foreigners NEVER wore the black bordered Dachau style SS "checkered Croatian sleeve shields.
They used the Heer/LW "Kroatien" titled pattern! This s clearly a Waffen SS shield!

[Zauberflöte]

Most likely tollerated if done. I know that for example in Wiking (many nationalities) the Estonians proudly wore their national arm shields...

Dutchmen Johannes (Hans) Havic and Casper Sporck (both Dutch Knights Cross winners) both did NOT serve in "Dutch" units, Havic in "Polizei Division" and Sporck in "Nordland",
and both did NOT wear Dutch nationality shields... So if it was not done necessarily based on their nationality...

Even full Germans (cadre members) wore Croatian shields in Handschar and were not Croatian...it became a unit "uniform" look, not necessarily a nationality indicator (of the person).
So based on the handschar method (assumption) I guess theoretically a Reichs-Deutchse from Hungary in a Dutch unit could have worn a Dutch shield... ???? It gets confusing!
but they probably did not!

Basically it should be taken in consideration that the Dutch volunteers that served in "Wiking" were in general much more Germany/Hitler focussed then those serving in Frw.Leg. Niederlande/23. Div.'Nederland'. The Dutch National shield was a direct link to the NSB - of which many members originate from - and it's leader Anton Mussert and therefore a clear sign of the roots to the Netherlands. Main goal was Holland to become part of a greater Germanic empire but remaining it's own identity (they often kept singing the national Dutch anthem "Wilhelmus" f.e., to big german frustration).

I don't think you will find German NCO's or officers serving in the division wearing the Dutch national shield. Hence a different practice as within f.e. "Handschar".

F.

[NickG]

Basically it should be taken in consideration that the Dutch volunteers that served in "Wiking" were in general much more Germany/Hitler focussed then those serving in Frw.Leg. Niederlande/23. Div.'Nederland'. The Dutch National shield was a direct link to the NSB - of which many members originate from - and it's leader Anton Mussert and therefore a clear sign of the roots to the Netherlands. Main goal was Holland to become part of a greater Germanic empire but remaining it's own identity (they often kept singing the national Dutch anthem "Wilhelmus" f.e., to big german frustration).

I don't think you will find German NCO's or officers serving in the division wearing the Dutch national shield. Hence a different practice as within f.e. "Handschar".

F.

Yep I agree 100%, different unit (or sub unit), different philosophy different way of handling insignia (for different reasons like political)
So Dutchmen in Wiking did not wear sleeve shields...but Estonians in Wiking did...

[Zauberflöte]

And to your question Nick; I can't recall having seen period pictures with the 'Nederland' ct in wear, but I have seen them with the 'Niederlande' cuff-title....

[besslein]

And to your question Nick; I can't recall having seen period pictures with the 'Nederland' ct in wear, but I have seen them with the 'Niederlande' cuff-title....

me too,but maybe Nick has seen? did you Nick?

[NickG]

me too,but maybe Nick has seen? did you Nick?

No me neither. I would love to see period image proof of "Nederland" Div (and the 2 related regimental titles)
being worn along with the final Dachau pattern Dutch shields, as often illustrated in well known reference publications ...
and even seen on very expensive dealer offered (no doubt rebuilt) tunics!

I am sure we have all seen these "reference" images... Artist's rendition? or based on a true period photograph???
Anyway illustrated are NEDERLAND M44 + NEDERLAND Wrapper...(H&C) ???

[NickG]

Web images.... The tunics are around untouched originals? Most likely not!
NEDERLAND M43 and M44 shown... no doubt creations...

[NickG]

Another web image... Yes even the 1/6th scale guys are "building" these...They even believe in these insignia being worn...
but the lack of photographic proof makes you wonder...

[NickG]

I do know that the BeVo"NEDERLAND" cufftitle's close twin BeVo "LANDSTORM NEDERLAND" was indeed worn in late 44-45...
Here is photographic proof of that one being worn (period image tunic close up of a POW in 1945...collar insignia and sleeve eagle stripped !)

Its probably a matter of patience and images of De Ruiter, Seyffhart, Nederland titles will eventually surface.I've been on the hunt myself!
(just like the "Metz 1944" cuff title and Indian SS lion's head collar tab, printed SS sleeve eagle examples etc..).

Bear in mind that many millions of late war Waffen SS images were destroyed (a complete archive) in Allied bombing fires ...
(in Munich I believe) so a significant late war record has been lost forever...only earlier images of Leg.Niederlande having survived...