Catholic troops in Handschar's MP unit?

[Obergruppen2]

I am kind of surprised by your comments guys, especially you Nick, since I know you have a really good knowledge about this stuff and had shown interest in Handschar in the past as well.

Even Lepre's book tells a lot of about Croatian mutineers, but the big part of it is that you have to consider the ultimate situation in the area at the time. It is not that they were poor soldiers, it's just that they had different agenda from the majority of the unit's manpower. Many Muslims from proper Croatian (Ustasha) units went to Handschar, hence weakening the local forces to the German-led SS division. In addition, it is well known that Handschar was hoping for certain kind of Bosnian Muslim autonomy in the East-Northeast Bosnia. Sauberzweig even had a proclamation written to this end, it is also cited in Lepre's book in the full text, if I remember correctly. According to the same source, many nationalistic Handschar soldiers would rip off the Croatian checkerboard sleeve shield to demonstrate their sentiments toward the policies of NDH.

Finally, with the end of the war approaching Croatian government was doing quite a bit to sabotage further strengthening of the SS division built nearly entirely of what they considered to be Croatian Muslims - but of quite different loyalties altogether. Perhaps a bit of understandable jealousy was also involved on their part, with the Bosnian Muslims receiving brand new German "toys". Ultimately it didn't matter in the end, since even Bosnian Muslims became unhappy about having to leave their homeland for Hungary, hence the increase in desertion rates in autumn of 1944.

I'm from Croatia and all i can say is that you are correct , it was the 1'st Croatian and besides the Bosnian ( back then NDH- Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska )moslem's there were non-moslem German officers and Croatians as well

[Death-Ace]

I am kind of surprised by your comments guys, especially you Nick, since I know you have a really good knowledge about this stuff and had shown interest in Handschar in the past as well.

Even Lepre's book tells a lot of about Croatian mutineers, but the big part of it is that you have to consider the ultimate situation in the area at the time. It is not that they were poor soldiers, it's just that they had different agenda from the majority of the unit's manpower. Many Muslims from proper Croatian (Ustasha) units went to Handschar, hence weakening the local forces to the German-led SS division. In addition, it is well known that Handschar was hoping for certain kind of Bosnian Muslim autonomy in the East-Northeast Bosnia. Sauberzweig even had a proclamation written to this end, it is also cited in Lepre's book in the full text, if I remember correctly. According to the same source, many nationalistic Handschar soldiers would rip off the Croatian checkerboard sleeve shield to demonstrate their sentiments toward the policies of NDH.

Finally, with the end of the war approaching Croatian government was doing quite a bit to sabotage further strengthening of the SS division built nearly entirely of what they considered to be Croatian Muslims - but of quite different loyalties altogether. Perhaps a bit of understandable jealousy was also involved on their part, with the Bosnian Muslims receiving brand new German "toys". Ultimately it didn't matter in the end, since even Bosnian Muslims became unhappy about having to leave their homeland for Hungary, hence the increase in desertion rates in autumn of 1944.

Thank you for such informative detail! We were discussing the different troops. I know that Turkey agreed to an alliance because they believed emerge a power from it? Or to fight communism, which led to many a demise. We wondered about the Catholic troops and they becoming MPs! We didn't think all could've rebelled. Now we know! Yes, there were an amount of sides to every one side. Least they fought for individual beliefs! I always thought the 13th to have been a strong and proud division and glad others think so as well!

[NickG]

Thanks for the input guys. I think its time to re-read Lepre's book...its been years...
My topic had more to do with the claimed high contingent of Catholic Croats in
Handschar's 13th MP unit and the reason why it was like that. By design?
Not the mix of religions in Handschar in general and their motivation to do certain things (deserting, mutiny incident and where their final loyalities lay).
Agreed that Catholics were fierce anti communist fighters, look at the Belgians and Spanish volunteering for East Front duty, many for religious reasons...

So the mutiny in France was organized between the Muslim ranks of Handschar during its formation and training but the desertions (and Tito infiltration) later during deployment occurred between both the Muslim and Catholic ranks of the division (were they even segregated? like by platoon?)
and as the Catholics were the vast minority (and very anti-communist) it was a much bigger problem among the Muslim ranks, so the Germans trusted the Catholics more and put many of the in the MP unit, the disciplinary back-bone of the division to maintain order.
Is that an accurate statement and valid explanation why the majority of Handschar MP's were Catholic as claimed?

PS: I just received a PM from a fellow member that the non Muslims (Catholics) were actually the majority in the Divivion (this according to local villagers at the time) but for propaganda reasons it was portraid primarily as a Muslim unit... so seen as such (even in modern times) Thoughts on this?
or was it just a shift because of desertions, the other side becoming the minority?

[V.I.D.]

Thanks for the input guys. I think its time to re-read Lepre's book...its been years...
My topic had more to do with the claimed high contingent of Catholic Croats in
Handschar's 13th MP unit and the reason why it was like that. By design?

Nick, that's a very valid question and I honestly would not know the answer. I am wondering (since an assumption goes, at least) if it has something to do with these Croats being veterans of anti-Partisan fighting since 1941 already in their native Ustasa or Domobran units? Then again a case could be made for many a Muslim transfer into the division from the forces of NDH? I don't know, it really is a good question on your part.

So the mutiny in France was organized between the Muslim ranks of Handschar during its formation and training but the desertions later during deployment occurred between both the Muslim and Catholic ranks of the division (were they even segregated? like by platoon?)
and as the Catholics were the vast minority (and very anti-communist) it was a much bigger problem among the Muslim ranks, so the Germans trusted the Catholics more and put many of the in the MP unit, the disciplinary back-bone of the division to maintain order.
Is that an accurate statement and valid explanation why the majority of Handschar MP's were Catholic as claimed?

Again, I think it is really hard to know all the right reasons and as Tommaso mentioned it was infiltrates of Tito's communist sympathizers that stirred up the mutiny in France. However, I think Lepre does cite disproportionately larger number of Croats as opposed to Bosnian Muslim taking part in this mutiny so it does leave a thing or two to wonder about.

PS: I just received a PM from a fellow member that the non Muslims (Catholics) were actually the majority in the Divivion (this according to local villagers at the time) but for propaganda reasons it was portraid primarily as a Muslim unit... so seen as such (even in modern times) Thoughts on this?
or was it just a shift because of desertions, the other side becoming the minority?

I am really not buying this unless there is a definite written record of which we are not aware about. There is nothing in Lepre's book (which, unfortunately is still "The Bible" when discussing this division) or other sources that I could find that would even hint at something like that. I believe that a very large proportion of the division (3/4 or at the best 3/5) was made up of Bosnian Muslims. Even when the division was practically changed into Kampfgruppe "Hanke" and fought Soviets and Tito's Partisans from late November 1944 through April 1945 there was still, I believe, 50/50 ratio between Germans and Bosnian Muslims in it. If anything, many Croats (Catholics) deserted as well or were released to Ustasa/Domobran units, thus any remaining Catholics would come from the ranks of Germans and Volksdeutsche in the unit.

[V.I.D.]

Thank you for such informative detail! We were discussing the different troops. I know that Turkey agreed to an alliance because they believed emerge a power from it? Or to fight communism, which led to many a demise. We wondered about the Catholic troops and they becoming MPs! We didn't think all could've rebelled. Now we know! Yes, there were an amount of sides to every one side. Least they fought for individual beliefs! I always thought the 13th to have been a strong and proud division and glad others think so as well!

I think that this is really an interesting topic indeed, but I am far from any expert on this matter. I do have Lepre's book and read as many trustworthy online sources as I could have found. Your last comment really incites further questions that should be answered and that I have also pondered as well. For example, if the division was redeployed to the home region in 1942 or 1943, how much difference its course it would be? I think the dissolution was largely brought on by several factors, namely NDH's attempt to sabotage the further recruitment into the division and longtime propaganda against it. Second, Tito's issuing of the appeal to all anti-Partisan forces in the region to join the Partisan ranks without any fear of reprisal in August of 1944 (the situation was changing drastically for worse for Axis, and many Muslims in Domobran units in Bosnia at this time have changed sides at this time and in September 1944. It is not surprising that many of their counterparts in Handschar division have learned of this and possibly done the same). Ultimately, the decision to move the division away from the home region ("due to ferocious enemy (Partisan) and Croatian propaganda" per Lepre's book) which took the toll on the morale. I don't know if it is more of a myth or truth, but allegedly many German officers had complete understanding of Bosnian Muslims' desire to go back home and fight there against Partisans as promised then having to fight Soviets in Hungary.

I'm from Croatia and all i can say is that you are correct , it was the 1'st Croatian and besides the Bosnian ( back then NDH- Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska )moslem's there were non-moslem German officers and Croatians as well

One of my grandpas fought against Handschar division and another one cooperated with them in their mutual anti-Partisan fight, hence the interest.

[Death-Ace]

I think that this is really an interesting topic indeed, but I am far from any expert on this matter. I do have Lepre's book and read as many trustworthy online sources as I could have found. Your last comment really incites further questions that should be answered and that I have also pondered as well. For example, if the division was redeployed to the home region in 1942 or 1943, how much difference its course it would be? I think the dissolution was largely brought on by several factors, namely NDH's attempt to sabotage the further recruitment into the division and longtime propaganda against it. Second, Tito's issuing of the appeal to all anti-Partisan forces in the region to join the Partisan ranks without any fear of reprisal in August of 1944 (the situation was changing drastically for worse for Axis, and many Muslims in Domobran units in Bosnia at this time have changed sides at this time and in September 1944. It is not surprising that many of their counterparts in Handschar division have learned of this and possibly done the same). Ultimately, the decision to move the division away from the home region ("due to ferocious enemy (Partisan) and Croatian propaganda" per Lepre's book) which took the toll on the morale. I don't know if it is more of a myth or truth, but allegedly many German officers had complete understanding of Bosnian Muslims' desire to go back home and fight there against Partisans as promised then having to fight Soviets in Hungary.



One of my grandpas fought against Handschar division and another one cooperated with them in their mutual anti-Partisan fight, hence the interest.

Thanks for the info! You may not be an expert, but in truth, you're very knowledgeable. If it's true about the officers, is it possible that they felt the same? Know that's very innocent, but that's one thing a soldier longs for. And a countryman (though not always!).

This is kind of OT, but do you know if Sanis were given the diamond for their sleeves and if all NCOs were German?

[V.I.D.]

Thanks for the info! You may not be an expert, but in truth, you're very knowledgeable. If it's true about the officers, is it possible that they felt the same? Know that's very innocent, but that's one thing a soldier longs for. And a countryman (though not always!).

This is kind of OT, but do you know if Sanis were given the diamond for their sleeves and if all NCOs were German?

Sorry, I do not know about the status of Sanis, perhaps someone else could chime in with photos or other sources. As for the NCOs, Lepre's book cites numerous times that hundreds of "Muslim officers and NCOs" from Ustasha and Domobran units were to be released to serve in Handschar division in 1943. NDH authorities were not happy with this, as it often decimated numbers of some their elite brigades. Some early plans called for "experienced Muslim officers of Austro-Hungarian regiments from WWI". In any event, from the beginning of its inception, it appears that the division was struggling in obtaining sufficient number of NCOs and officer cadre, even including all the German and volksdeutche transfers from "Prinz Eugen", "Nordland", "Das Reich" and "Wiking". The one interesting tidbit of information I always found interesting was that Himmler initially intended to place Hermann Fegelein as the division commander, but eventually changed his mind for Sauberzweig.

[pete]

This is a very interesting division to say the least!

Pete

[Obergruppen2]

This is a very interesting division to say the least!

Pete

I second that and except for the mutiny that took place in the beginning of the Division it had a very good battle reputation and was very feared by both partisans and Chetniks so to really get an insight into the Handschar Division one must understand the situation in Balkans and the ever present antagonism between the Catholic-Moslem-Orthodox population.
The Croatian Ustashe and Serbian Royalists- Chetniks were brutal in ethnic cleansing and the Moslem population was always a very eager target of the Chetniks who slayed whole villages and did unimaginable crimes which was also one of the main reasons the Moslems wanted to join the Handschar Division.

[Obergruppen2]

...and the most terrible truth was that after all those years since the Second World War not much have really really changed in Bosnia, i was Croatian Freiwillige in the Croatian Army ( ZNG ) in 91 and later i joined the Croatian forces ( HVO ) and fought in Bosnia excatly in the same places where " Prinz Eugen " and " Handschar " fought back then and the enemy was exactly the same as then except for the Moslems that turned against us later one during the conflict and started receiving volunteers from the Middle eastern countries and the Caucasus Republics !
I remember that we found many WW-2 German Schmeissers, MG 34 & 42's, Luger etc, German helmets as well but then i wasn't in a situation to collect because we were looking to have a light back pack and not filled with all that " treasure " but i did take a helmet and a MP 40 as a souvenir

[V.I.D.]

Guys, let's keep this thread clean of political statements and pictures not related to Handschar division. If we are going to talk about WWII in this area (Posavina & North-East Bosnia), the picture is far from black & white. Serbian villages were equally razed and burned to the ground, with innocent population murdered or taken to Jasenovac Concentration Camp (my own great-grandfather was killed there in 1943).

This had lead to numerous, bizarre "marriages out of convenience", so you had Trebava and Ozren Chetniks recognizing NDH officially per document from June of 1942, while fighting Ustasha and Green Cadre forces in the area, whenever they weren't fighting their Partisan rivals. Yet, that did not stop them from cooperating with Handschar division in several actions against Partisan forces in the late summer of 1944. Balkan hatred, loyalties, and the amount of brutality will always be hard to explained to the outsider. However, we could discuss all these things in a separate thread since this one is about Catholic troops in Handschar's MP unit as per Nick's design.

[Obergruppen2]

Guys, let's keep this thread clean of political statements and pictures not related to Handschar division. If we are going to talk about WWII in this area (Posavina & North-East Bosnia), the picture is far from black & white. Serbian villages were equally razed and burned to the ground, with innocent population murdered or taken to Jasenovac Concentration Camp (my own great-grandfather was killed there in 1943).

This had lead to numerous, bizarre "marriages out of convenience", so you had Trebava and Ozren Chetniks recognizing NDH officially per document from June of 1942, while fighting Ustasha and Green Cadre forces in the area, whenever they weren't fighting their Partisan rivals. Yet, that did not stop them from cooperating with Handschar division in several actions against Partisan forces in the late summer of 1944. Balkan hatred, loyalties, and the amount of brutality will always be hard to explained to the outsider. However, we could discuss all these things in a separate thread since this one is about Catholic troops in Handschar's MP unit as per Nick's design.

I also have Lepre's book on the Handschar Division but pics are worth a thousand words !!!

[V.I.D.]

I also have Lepre's book on the Handschar Division but pics are worth a thousand words !!!

Indeed they are! On the side note, have you, or anyone else for that matter ever read Enver Redzic's "Muslimansko autonomastvo i 13 SS Divizija" ("Muslim autonomy movement and 13th SS Division")? I have learned that he was a very good historian, and quite objective in the assessment of various war factions in WWII Bosnia so this book should be a very good read. It was published in 1987 in Sarajevo.

[Obergruppen2]

Indeed they are! On the side note, have you, or anyone else for that matter ever read Enver Redzic's "Muslimansko autonomastvo i 13 SS Divizija" ("Muslim autonomy movement and 13th SS Division")? I have learned that he was a very good historian, and quite objective in the assessment of various war factions in WWII Bosnia so this book should be a very good read. It was published in 1987 in Sarajevo.

Yes, i know about that book, it is very hard to find, will try and get it through someone in Croatia, guess it can be found in old second hand book shops but hey, i just downloaded it a minute ago on Megaupload

[NickG]

Those horseback Handschar MP's are fantastic. Thanks for posting!!!
I need to get a set of riding breeches and boots for my 13th MP Trupp impression!