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    #16
    Tabs

    "I looked at that sewn SS rune tab again and tried to figure out what I missed. I'm guessing its either the tabs aren't lined up too well, or the backs? If someone could educate me a bit I'd appreciate it. Or, it was either the camera or those runes have a brownish hue. Is this known to be on a particular run of fakes?"

    Officer runic and rank tabs: Poor execution of the runes, two strand piping on both, and incorrect buckram on both tabs. EM tabs: Wrong thread used on runes. Poor construction of the runes. Incorrect buckram. EM runes are typical of known fakes. Last set of tabs, runes apppear to have been given the tea/coffee treatment.

    Once again, use the Search function and Threads of Interest feature. You'll learn a lot from both.

    Charles Betz
    Last edited by C. Betz; 12-03-2011, 12:40 AM.

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      #17
      Thank you very much.

      Comment

        #18
        2 strands

        Originally posted by C. Betz View Post
        "I looked at that sewn SS rune tab again and tried to figure out what I missed. I'm guessing its either the tabs aren't lined up too well, or the backs? If someone could educate me a bit I'd appreciate it. Or, it was either the camera or those runes have a brownish hue. Is this known to be on a particular run of fakes?"

        Officer runic and rank tabs: Poor execution of the runes, two strand piping on both, and incorrect buckram on both tabs. EM tabs: Wrong thread used on runes. Poor construction of the runes. Incorrect buckram. EM runes are typical of known fakes. Last set of tabs, runes apppear to have been given the tea/coffee treatment.

        Once again, use the Search function and Threads of Interest feature. You'll learn a lot from both.

        Charles Betz
        I agree with all that you say, except the 2 strands in the piping.
        There are many known original tabs having 2 strands. IMO this should not be used to gauge originality.
        Peter

        Comment

          #19
          Lustig

          Originally posted by Peter Manzie View Post
          Original litzen on the one rank tab toward the bottom. Hope that helps.
          Sehr Lustig ! Aber wahr.

          Comment

            #20
            Tabs

            "I agree with all that you say, except the 2 strands in the piping.
            There are many known original tabs having 2 strands. IMO this should not be used to gauge originality.
            Peter "

            They (2 strand piping) are also found on an abundant number of fakes. I included this description in conjunction with the other flaws, not as a sole source of authenticity or lack there of.

            Charles Betz
            Last edited by C. Betz; 12-03-2011, 01:21 PM.

            Comment

              #21
              As Mr Betz correctly pointed out, 2 strands are common on fakes but very rare on originals. Hence it should be a warning sign and a signal to make further investegations for other treats that can tell about originality.

              To claim 2 strands twisted wire is common on originals does not hold water IMO. It is a rare feature, but again, there does exist originals with two strands. However they make up around 2-3 % of the total, at most. That goes for all the collar tabs I have owned, handled and seen on photos.
              During my collectiong years I think I have seen less than 5 original SS officer collar tabs with 2 strand twisted wire. 5 is on the generous side.

              It is virtually impossible to tell if an officer twisted piping has got two or three strands from obverse photos. The reverse needs to be checked to find out about the true numbers.

              //Felix

              Comment

                #22
                2 vs 3

                Originally posted by C. Betz View Post
                "I agree with all that you say, except the 2 strands in the piping.
                There are many known original tabs having 2 strands. IMO this should not be used to gauge originality.
                Peter "

                They (2 strand piping) are also found on an abundant number of fakes. I included this description in conjunction with the other flaws, not as a sole source of authenticity or lack there of.

                Charles Betz
                There are far far more 3 stand fakes than 2 IMO. Actually, I would never use the piping to gauge anything related to originality unless the core reacted under UV. Other than that, it is out of the equation.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Peter Manzie View Post
                  There are far far more 3 stand fakes than 2 IMO. Actually, I would never use the piping to gauge anything related to originality unless the core reacted under UV. Other than that, it is out of the equation.
                  You are the one claming there are many originals with two strands. That is not correct IMO. Two strand originals are very rare. That is a fact according to what I have seen, and I am sure great many others as well. See my post above. I do not think my observations are incorrect.
                  There are a number of classic fake tabs as shown in this thread having the two strands. That makes it a warning sign. Especially in the context of the rune tab in question. There are more 3 strand fakes than 2 strand fakes is of course true, but that discussion is not really valid here. You mix things up to defend old comments about that 2 strand originals are common, perhaps by judging obverse pictures in the wrong way. We all do mistakes, that is fair. I do my mistakes as well.

                  The question here, however, is if 2 strands should alarm caution, and the answer is yes. However after that observation of two strands one naturally needs to do further investigations for the rest of the criteria for original collar tabs. Do not pressume Mr Betz is stupid, because he is not. Nor am I. The whole context is the thing with several details that matters.

                  //Felix

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Piping

                    Originally posted by Felix View Post
                    You are the one claming there are many originals with two strands. That is not correct IMO. Two strand originals are very rare. That is a fact according to what I have seen, and I am sure great many others as well. See my post above. I do not think my observations are incorrect.
                    There are a number of classic fake tabs as shown in this thread having the two strands. That makes it a warning sign. Especially in the context of the rune tab in question. There are more 3 strand fakes than 2 strand fakes is of course true, but that discussion is not really valid here. You mix things up to defend old comments about that 2 strand originals are common, perhaps by judging obverse pictures in the wrong way. We all do mistakes, that is fair. I do my mistakes as well.

                    The question here, however, is if 2 strands should alarm caution, and the answer is yes. However after that observation of two strands one naturally needs to do further investigations for the rest of the criteria for original collar tabs. Do not pressume Mr Betz is stupid, because he is not. Nor am I. The whole context is the thing with several details that matters.

                    //Felix
                    I never said Mr. Betz is stupid nor did I imply that. What I will imply is that if you use 2 strand or 3 strand piping in the judging process, you are stupid. Hope that puts things into the correct perceptive for you.

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Tabs

                      Well I guess I am stupid. As Felix rightly stated, there are very few original 2 strand piping tabs. If they were as abundant as you have stated, they'd be showing up like fleas on this forum. Fake 3 strand? Many to be sure. A 2 strand tab will get a lot more scrutiny from me from the start. The piping is just a part of the sum of the whole when making a judgement of authenticity. There are many other factors as well to consider when judging tabs.

                      Charles Betz

                      PS: I'll have SS lab coats with Dachau labels for $400, Alex.
                      Last edited by C. Betz; 12-03-2011, 03:45 PM.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by C. Betz View Post
                        Well I guess I am stupid. PS: I'll have SS lab coats with Dachau labels for $400, Alex.
                        How wonderful for you.

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Peter Manzie View Post
                          What I will imply is that if you use 2 strand or 3 strand piping in the judging process, you are stupid.
                          By your definitions I am stupid then, and many others. Did I read you correct? Thats fine if thats your intention its almost a compliment. I think that sums up a bit about your knowledge... (many knows about your dirty deals with fakes etc)
                          Obviously you did not read what I wrote. Number of strands is one part, other details make up for the rest. The context! Put it into a context and it will be clear. Is the word context not in the dictionary where come from? In the context of the collar tab in question you start to argue about that Two strands are fine and common. Is it only me (and few others) who think it is kind of obvious?

                          There are original tabs with two strands but they are very rare. Community knows that but they are very rare. As illustrated in this thread 2 strands are common for some fakes and hence a warning sign. That is true. If you argue against that, thats really your problem. I wont try to convince you as it is pointless. I am sure the rest has understood.

                          //Felix

                          Comment

                            #28
                            2 Strands

                            Felix, say whatever you like.
                            I would never let the number of strands in the piping influence my decision on originality. Never!

                            Comment

                              #29
                              I hate to jump into this dog fight over who is most stupid, but the dead giveaway on the tabs in post #1 & #4 are the dots of paint on the reverse used for marking cutting lines. This is an old Pakistani technique that they have long since corrected.

                              All of these tabs are old fakes with many errors and should be obvious to anyone who has studied SS tabs at all.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by CurtD View Post
                                I hate to jump into this dog fight over who is most stupid, but the dead giveaway on the tabs in post #1 & #4 are the dots of paint on the reverse used for marking cutting lines. This is an old Pakistani technique that they have long since corrected.

                                All of these tabs are old fakes with many errors and should be obvious to anyone who has studied SS tabs at all.
                                Thank you, that is very helpful!

                                William Kramer
                                Please visit my site: https://wehrmacht-militaria.com/

                                Comment

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