Id on ss kz uniform

[Arran]

Its Bill Stump's son...

[BenVK]

For the benefit of the thread, here's at least one photo of the tunic in question.

F-37 Waffen-SS KZ (Concentration Camp) walking-out piped officer's tunic. O.D. wool with a dark green collar and brown piping down front and around turned-up cuffs. Four "patch" pockets. Thread loops for a 3" ribbon bar and four badges (Iron Cross 1st Class, Infantry Assault Badge, KvK 1st Class and Wound Badge). Loops and buttons on shoulders to accommodate slip-on shoulder boards. Slit behind lower left pocket flap - for a dagger hanger. Gray cloth lining with black striped white sleeve linings. Outline visible on collar where collar tabs were removed and on sleeve which once had a sleeve eagle. A rare tunic which should be restored. II+

[Ian Hulley]

has medals loops and from one of the loops he had a Gold Party Badge and 3 other awards and a 3 loop ribbion bar

No mention on the ad of a GPB ? As a KL officer (and quite a senior one to get away with the non-regulation tunic) the chances are the pocket pleat loops were for a KVKmS or WWI EKI ? No trace of an Ehrenwinkle either ?

Ian

[Johnny R]

The loops would hold an EK I spange as well. We need to see better pictures to say more.

[Johnny R]

For the benefit of the thread, here's at least one photo of the tunic in question.

F-37 Waffen-SS KZ (Concentration Camp) walking-out piped officer's tunic. O.D. wool with a dark green collar and brown piping down front and around turned-up cuffs. Four "patch" pockets. Thread loops for a 3" ribbon bar and four badges (Iron Cross 1st Class, Infantry Assault Badge, KvK 1st Class and Wound Badge). Loops and buttons on shoulders to accommodate slip-on shoulder boards. Slit behind lower left pocket flap - for a dagger hanger. Gray cloth lining with black striped white sleeve linings. Outline visible on collar where collar tabs were removed and on sleeve which once had a sleeve eagle. A rare tunic which should be restored. II+

This was posted in #22 but the description is informative.

[Ian Hulley]

The loops would hold an EK I spange as well. We need to see better pictures to say more.

They would probably be higher on the pocket though ?

Ian

[Johnny R]

They would probably be higher on the pocket though ?

Ian

It really depends on the wearers preference, typically all the awards would be higher but the configuration shown is encountered too.

[Rogerd]

Hi,
I did a lot of research about SS-KZ tunics and I have seen a LOT of original pics of these guys. Only thing I can say: I have never seen an SS-KZ uniform of this model. If its real SS it would be very odd and rare... Looks indeed more like WH.

I think only better pics can help us here. And even then it will be a piece that will be discussed forever...

BTW this is my KZ SS-tunic, bouth here on the forum some years ago:

http://hethuisvan4045.webs.com/apps/...toid=128206330

[NickG]

I agree SS -KZ is a VERY long shot and honestly I don't think these guys would be flaunting their KZ branch color like this because (1) its an unofficial practice this farbe piping and (2) they were not proud of their duties as KZ staff members... wanting to show this farbe that clearly???
A combat positon was the glorious and honorable thing to do...but duty is duty...

I have a pretty solid theory about what this tunic is !

If its a Heer Recon piped tunic (as illitrated by Johnny's images, somebody onbiously removed the piping on the collar, which makes sense to do as that would stand out like a sore thumb with SS collar tabs BUT if the insignia ghosts are real it can not be HEER and the slip on shoulderboard provisions do not make sense for such a tunic in Heer service (and later modified to represent SS-KZ)...

This is my theory:

[NickG]

This uniform has ALL the traits of a ZOLL tunic.
It has typical Zoll slip-on shoulderboard provisions, it has typical ZOLL closure edge pipings and cuff edge piping (and no collar piping, fits the bill perfectly...unlike Heer recon piped tunics).
Zoll tunics btw came with various button counts so don't pay too much attention to that...tailor or customer preference), that's not too important!
BUT what stumps be is that the branch color is not Zoll...Supposed to be green... so faded? manipulated? or an obscure sub-branch of Zoll? (reserve farbe?)

What we do know is that after Hitler's assassination attempt in July 1944 all ZOLL and RFV personnel came under Himmler's authority and instructed to replace their Zoll cuff titles which included a national eagle, with now the SS type sleeve eagle.

So if the SS eagle sleeve ghost is real, its because of that reason.
This is the ONLY combination possible for a piped tunic with SS sleeve eagle and again the slip on board provisions are VERY typical for Zoll. You hardly ever see Zoll uniforms with sew-in boards...

Zoll collar tabs are more rectangular than SS but its not too clear what the ghosts look like on this piped "SS" tunic...
Note that the period SS-Zoll image shows a lower rank SS-Zoll member (NCO grade)
and higher rank members (officers) had collar tabs that were less rectangular! (closer to SS shape)

[Arran]

I honestly think all of this speculation is over a replica tunic, as opposed to an original TR product- the material and tailoring are just not on!

[NickG]

Yep that's another possibility! I am not impressed either but if the dealer thinks and has other opinions that its a 3rd Reich product, well I wanted to venture into other possible theories on alternate TR branch use! (SS controlled Zoll, as opposed to KZ-SS, very unlikely to me!)

and if its indeed ZOLL related look at the shape of the collar tabs of this higher elevation zoll (customs)
official...much closer to SS collar tab shape... that would work in conjunction with an SS sleeve eagle ghost! (post July '44)
Only the branch piping color is baffling to me...Should have been administrative Zoll green...faded,discolored? obscure sub-branch of Zoll with alternate farbe?)

[WEISNER]

True Kevin!
What a revealing blog! and obvious a very informed collector warning us!

no disrespect....OK? but sorry.... I could not resist! (author's blog portrait....)

Yes Quite a blog which kept me up late reading it all! What a hobby we have here, Man I love it! Good call on the Zoll Nick!
Kev

[Johnny R]

You guys have fantastic imaginations and IMO this is a dangerous thing in building a solid collection of real items.

What it is, is most likely a fantasy piece sensu N&T productions and waste of our time without more images. Probably 3000 people looked at it and only one bid. That speaks volumes to me beyond any thing I thought.

To me there is no debate, the piping is brown, brown does not fade like this from green. There is no strange RAD closet Fuhrer interpretive dancing coach Zoll tunic hypothesis that floats. It is most likely junk but I will not kill it without further photos.

[Johnny R]

Its Bill Stump's son...

I was told his Nephew-he is in his early 70s ? Do you know for sure?