Distinguishing SS M40 tunics from Heer ones

[Napalm]

Bob

In facts its been said followin this theory that you can find SS jackets with heere and ss lining cut probably cause ss specific uniforms were not enough to supply all ss troops.

sane thing is with m42 and m43 jackets. you can find period pics of SS soldiers wearing heer pattern 3 holes 6 buttons jackets but never the opposite

so same thing is with ss lining jackets

My mother ( god rest her ) who was a seamstress used patterns that she had from the 40's in her making of jackets and shirts and skirts into the 70's even thought she was sent patterns from the makers at the time...there was very little difference...

[n160]

There's more to it than just the lining cut- but it's the quickest thing to check.
Again, name one other 4 pocket tunic model that is identical to the Heer counterpart. Go back and look hard at the pics of the SS tunics. There's more to this.

The other M40/41 differences are: wider collar (attached differently than most Heer tunics so it's easier to wear open), "M41's" (rayon lining) have the breast pocket sewn through the lining and the internal suspender channel closed via machine rather than hand stitch, many have SS-VT gray HBT undercollars instead of reed green HBT or moleskin, the back waist is often even numbered (see below), the buttonhole on the first aid pocket is often horizontal, and the skirt is always shorter.
(The wider collar and attachment were carried over to M42/43's.)

How do I know the skirt is shorter? How do I know it wasn't done by the Reichsheinie's tailor? What is my "documentation"?
Original tunics. The markings tell alot more than most of you realize.

From the factory, SS tunics have shorter skirts than Heer tunics. Even if the uniform has been tailored, the stamps will tell you the "original" size. Not just sometimes, but every time I can see the stamps or measure the tunic, SS are shorter in a very obvious and systematic way.
To see this, you must compare like tunics of the same length. How do you tell the length? Easy.

Look at the size stamps. The upper left number is the back waist, which is equivalent to the US short, regular or long. That's the distance from the base of the collar to the level of the middle belt hook hole.

Each size corresponds to a height range: for example, 39 is for a guy 150-155cm tall, 43 is for 171-175, etc, etc. (The height range can vary slightly from one manufacturer to another)

So far, I have never found a Heer tunic given in anything other than odd numbers- 37,39, 41,43, 45, 47, 49 (51 and 53 should exist for super tall guys but I have yet to see one)
SS (and LW) can be odd or even. So they can be 37, 38, 39, 40....etc.
Why? Who the hell knows. Perhaps the Heer marked the sized it was supposed to be whereas the SS and LW checked the uniforms when they were finished and gave the actual meaurement. A 1cm deviation here is not unreasonable.

The number on the lower left of the size stamp is the total length of the back of the tunic. The difference between these two numbers gives you the length of the skirt- the distance from the middle belt hook hole to the hem.

SS tunics are always 2-5 cm shorter than the same length Heer.
Note: I pulled these numbers from photos of uniforms on WAF so you can check me.

Thus:
Heer Tunics
39/65 = 26cm skirt
41/70 = 29cm skirt
43/72 = 29cm skirt
45/75 = 30cm skirt

SS Tunics
39/63 = 24cm skirt
42/67 = 25cm skirt
43/68 = 25cm skirt
44/70 = 26cm skirt
45/72 = 27cm skirt


This holds for all 4 pocket models of tunics- wool, HBT, tropical, 44 dot. You can check this yourselves. It's right there on the tunics. There is rarely any deviation- the few I've seen were 1-2cm- and it's usually Heer tunics and the skirts are 1-2cm longer still than these numbers.
As for you "it's just a variation" people, an accidental 3cm deviance would cause all sorts of headaches in the factory- nothing would line up- the pockets would end up hanging over the hem, the back vent would be too short and the first aid pocket wouldn't line up.

And it just happens that all the M40/41's with the lining cut we can find follow the SS length proportions; AND they also have wider collars, no breast eagle ghosts, most have even numbered back waist lengths (42 or 44), the M41's have the breast pockets sewn through the lining, some have SS-VT gray HBT undercollars, etc, etc.

I know, it's ALL a coincidence...the same way the left off a button and a 4 belt hook holes on all the SS M42/43s.

[Napalm]

There's more to it than just the lining cut- but it's the quickest thing to check.
Again, name one other 4 pocket tunic model that is identical to the Heer counterpart. Go back and look hard at the pics of the SS tunics. There's more to this.

The other M40/41 differences are: wider collar (attached differently than most Heer tunics so it's easier to wear open), "M41's" (rayon lining) have the breast pocket sewn through the lining and the internal suspender channel closed via machine rather than hand stitch, many have SS-VT gray HBT undercollars instead of reed green HBT or moleskin, the back waist is often even numbered (see below), the buttonhole on the first aid pocket is often horizontal, and the skirt is always shorter.
(The wider collar and attachment were carried over to M42/43's.)

How do I know the skirt is shorter? How do I know it wasn't done by the Reichsheinie's tailor? What is my "documentation"?
Original tunics. The markings tell alot more than most of you realize.

From the factory, SS tunics have shorter skirts than Heer tunics. Even if the uniform has been tailored, the stamps will tell you the "original" size. Not just sometimes, but every time I can see the stamps or measure the tunic, SS are shorter in a very obvious and systematic way.
To see this, you must compare like tunics of the same length. How do you tell the length? Easy.

Look at the size stamps. The upper left number is the back waist, which is equivalent to the US short, regular or long. That's the distance from the base of the collar to the level of the middle belt hook hole.

Each size corresponds to a height range: for example, 39 is for a guy 150-155cm tall, 43 is for 171-175, etc, etc. (The height range can vary slightly from one manufacturer to another)

So far, I have never found a Heer tunic given in anything other than odd numbers- 37,39, 41,43, 45, 47, 49 (51 and 53 should exist for super tall guys but I have yet to see one)
SS (and LW) can be odd or even. So they can be 37, 38, 39, 40....etc.
Why? Who the hell knows. Perhaps the Heer marked the sized it was supposed to be whereas the SS and LW checked the uniforms when they were finished and gave the actual meaurement. A 1cm deviation here is not unreasonable.

The number on the lower left of the size stamp is the total length of the back of the tunic. The difference between these two numbers gives you the length of the skirt- the distance from the middle belt hook hole to the hem.

SS tunics are always 2-5 cm shorter than the same length Heer.
Note: I pulled these numbers from photos of uniforms on WAF so you can check me.

Thus:
Heer Tunics
39/65 = 26cm skirt
41/70 = 29cm skirt
43/72 = 29cm skirt
45/75 = 30cm skirt

SS Tunics
39/63 = 24cm skirt
42/67 = 25cm skirt
43/68 = 25cm skirt
44/70 = 26cm skirt
45/72 = 27cm skirt


This holds for all 4 pocket models of tunics- wool, HBT, tropical, 44 dot. You can check this yourselves. It's right there on the tunics. There is rarely any deviation- the few I've seen were 1-2cm- and it's usually Heer tunics and the skirts are 1-2cm longer still than these numbers.
As for you "it's just a variation" people, an accidental 3cm deviance would cause all sorts of headaches in the factory- nothing would line up- the pockets would end up hanging over the hem, the back vent would be too short and the first aid pocket wouldn't line up.

And it just happens that all the M40/41's with the lining cut we can find follow the SS length proportions; AND they also have wider collars, no breast eagle ghosts, most have even numbered back waist lengths (42 or 44), the M41's have the breast pockets sewn through the lining, some have SS-VT gray HBT undercollars, etc, etc.

I know, it's ALL a coincidence...the same way the left off a button and a 4 belt hook holes on all the SS M42/43s.

I believe, could the old guard pull together on this one?

[Johnny R]

I touched on this before but the SS and the Army had separate quartermaster offices. When a n items was requested by the Army or SS, what typically happened was that manufacturers would respond to a solicitation for a product design etc. and submit prototypes "Proben". The quartermaster units then would evaluate and conduct tests etc. and make changes. The manufacturers would then again submit a refined prototype and this would go through the same process. When it was finalized, the final pattern was documented and design specs made, panels created for clothing specifications etc. What I suspect happened was just the noted differences being part of the SS approved tunic template and the Army traits part of the Army specs. The approved finalized design panels for cutting would be sent out other companies or camps etc. as a template to follow for the production of SS tunics incorporating the noted features. These allowed consistent mass production of clothing items. The same thing can be noted in minor variations seen in SS issue trousers and head gear. This is a theory but it would explain the standardization and the differences between Army and SS clothing. Both branches also dictated marking protocol etc. so that may be explained by different directive from each of the services as well?

[n160]

I touched on this before but the SS and the Army had separate quartermaster offices. When a n items was requested by the Army or SS, what typically happened was that manufacturers would respond to a solicitation for a product design etc. and submit prototypes "Proben". The quartermaster units then would evaluate and conduct tests etc. and make changes. The manufacturers would then again submit a refined prototype and this would go through the same process. When it was finalized, the final pattern was documented and design specs made, panels created for clothing specifications etc. What I suspect happened was just the noted differences being part of the SS approved tunic template and the Army traits part of the Army specs. The approved finalized design panels for cutting would be sent out other companies or camps etc. as a template to follow for the production of SS tunics incorporating the noted features. These allowed consistent mass production of clothing items. The same thing can be noted in minor variations seen in SS issue trousers and head gear. This is a theory but it would explain the standardization and the differences between Army and SS clothing. Both branches also dictated marking protocol etc. so that may be explained by different directive from each of the services as well?

Some SS tunics have depot stamps- Bill Shea had a perfect "SS M40" at the SOS- marked "M41". Perhaps some civilian contractors who made items for both services stamped them out of habit- or did the depots handle items for the SS as well? Any idea how this worked?

So far I've seen depot marks, normal maker names and "SS BW" on SS tunics with the traits I've been fussing about.

Jakob Frank "Himmler's Jewish Tailor" discussed making Heer, SS and Polizei tunics in the Lipowa ghetto sewing shop from 1940 to 1943. He mentioned having to insure that the correct color fabrics and patterns were used for the respective jackets. (And that they were properly size marked and bundled). But he didn't go into great pattern detail.

[Johnny R]

Some items were made in camps and other were made outside of direct SS control. The items made outside of the lagers show a little more variation and have different types of stamps but are the SS design in cut. I have what is by every right an "SS M43" tunic but it is set up as a walking out tunic for a late war Army Jr. NCO with no signs of a sleeve eagle or SS rank tabs. Interestingly it has been modified for open wear of the collar and NCO tresse was never applied to it. The tunic was from the collection of the former LW museum and in my opinion is all period done. I just wonder if Army units received "SS" clothing. I think somewhere in the Beaver books it says they did.

[Johnny R]

Lining and eagle sewn like a Tropical tunic which is odd too-

[Napalm]

typo1234

[besslein]

Johnny i think this was a collector mistake,in all my years of collecting,i have seen barn finds,attic finds,veteran finds,and never a ss tunic with heer army insignia,antoher point are film studios finds,in that case i can confirm i have seen a lot frankensteins.

[Johnny R]

Stamps and the lining in the skirt areas

[Johnny R]

Johnny i think this was a collector mistake,in all my years of collecting,i have seen barn finds,attic finds,veteran finds,and never a ss tunic with heer army insignia,antoher point are film studios finds,in that case i can confirm i have seen a lot frankensteins.

Hi, I thought that too but with all the alterations, the bandage bag and the belt ramps removed I am not sure. It came from an auction but before that from the Luftwaffenmuseum Uetersen (the red stamp on the left side lining). I have seen weird jackets made like this also from KM Coastal artillery uniforms. Trust me I would love to restore it as SS but cannot be sure and will leave it the way it is.

[Johnny R]

Johnny i think this was a collector mistake,in all my years of collecting,i have seen barn finds,attic finds,veteran finds,and never a ss tunic with heer army insignia,antoher point are film studios finds,in that case i can confirm i have seen a lot frankensteins.

I am headed to bed but looked at it while I had it out very carefully and I agree with you about Frankensteins but I am not sure on this one. I just see a lot of excessive alterations with the skirt and pockets that normally you only see for actually worn uniforms when they were trying to fit an individual. Film studios would do this too but with this one to me it really speaks like a late War better dress tunic. Hard to be sure but like I said if I were sure it was restored I would restore as SS.

[n160]

Johnny-
I saw a "mixed" tunic last year- it looked like a Heer NCO's M43 with 6 buttons, but inside was SS lining (all the way to the hem), lined sleeves and lots of hand finishing.
Size was stamped chest only (96) and clearly marked "OSTI". "OstIndustrie"?

I wonder what the Lipowa and Madjenek made unifroms were marked? SS-BW or with the name of a subcontractor? Frank said that Lipowa started in early 1940 making 4 pocket tunics for the SS.

Some sources mention Ravensbruck filling orders for the Heer and Luftwaffe.

Lastly, does anyone know the whether the maker codes (910, 525, 617 etc) were contractors or perhaps those could have been ghettos or sub camps? Those uniforms tend to be better made than BW and Ra uniforms.

[Napalm]

I am headed to bed but looked at it while I had it out very carefully and I agree with you about Frankensteins but I am not sure on this one. I just see a lot of excessive alterations with the skirt and pockets that normally you only see for actually worn uniforms when they were trying to fit an individual. Film studios would do this too but with this one to me it really speaks like a late War better dress tunic. Hard to be sure but like I said if I were sure it was restored I would restore as SS.

But surely not the lining as in the cut? from three to two?

[Johnny R]

But surely not the lining as in the cut? from three to two?

The skirt has been shortened and the pockets moved, it makes the cut of the lining look odd, it is the "SS" cut with the two angles.