Distinguishing SS M40 tunics from Heer ones

[Daniele C]

Great thread,

Now we ll see who has Heer Jackets with SS Insignia e those who sells these...

[Benny]

Interesting thread... Thanks for the informations. Really good pictures.
The problem is that many SS soldiers had WH Uniforms... I have more than 20 original SS Portraits with SS Soldiers wearing ex-Heer Jackets... It is possible to see eactly where the WH-eagles have been... Best Regards Benny

[besslein]

Interesting thread... Thanks for the informations. Really good pictures.
The problem is that many SS soldiers had WH Uniforms... I have more than 20 original SS Portraits with SS Soldiers wearing ex-Heer Jackets... It is possible to see eactly where the WH-eagles have been... Best Regards Benny

Volltreffer!!!

[NickG]

Interesting thread... Thanks for the informations. Really good pictures.
The problem is that many SS soldiers had WH Uniforms... I have more than 20 original SS Portraits with SS Soldiers wearing ex-Heer Jackets... It is possible to see eactly where the WH-eagles have been... Best Regards Benny

Voltreffer? Its not proving a point at all! Yes a period SS tunic recycled from Heer is still an SS tunic but its not an SS contract tunic, if the theory is true!

Yes it is a well known fact that recycling was going on....and that has really nothing to do with the topic of the possible existence of SS contract uniforms with a distinct liner difference.

It is easy to find SS tunics with 3 stap panels in the liner (recyled Heer perhaps if the theory is correct?), but so far impossible to find examples of Heer tunics with 2 step (2 angle) liners...
so its NOT a maker variation...otherwise those would have surfaced! So we must ask the question: what does that mean? Why do these exist? and always with SS insignia!(so far at least)
Heer recycled for SS use = common but the other way around...not! So do the so-called "SS cut liners" exist as purely an SS thing? So far the documented uniforms are leaning that way!

Otherwise somebody PLEASE show an original untouched Heer M40 tunic with the 2 angles...Even the parrallel thread in the Heer section came up with NOTHING...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=555365
strenghtening this theory! (to me at least)

So Besslein does your SS M40 tunic have a 2 step or 3 step cut? You still have not revealed that yet...Your contribution would be appreciated to help understand these differences!
I really do think that member n160 hit on something here and others might resist the acceptance of this theory as it would mean that their 3 angle liner SS tunics could become (perceived as) possibly a less desirable Heer pattern conversion...(with devaluation concerns??) if this theory is proven to be accurate and it becomes accepted among collectors going forward...

[NickG]

These are not hard to find on the web when you pay attention to this detail...
yes again SS (M40 with added green collar) Again 2 step SS cut !

but 2 step Heer? Just not out there...
Here (link below) a Heer M40 (with retailered M36 style collar) and yes a 3 angle!
http://aboutww2militaria.com/April20...an_tunic5.html

and SS with 3 steps (not too hard to find either...) but Heer 2 steps??? Please show them!
http://aboutww2militaria.com/SS_Special/ss_tunic.html

[espenlaub]

That theory doesen't work for me sorry. To me the SS Model is M 37, and M 40, both with open neck. Any of the angles on the tunic's liners, can not make the difference between heeres and SS tunics ( as I've mentioned before, it's just a difference between producer, and I'am firm with it), to me this theory looks absurd. Can you tell me for which purposes this was done? To make a difference for the collectors? I don't see the point to make two slightly different cuts in liner angles, this will make the headache for a factory owner and it is absolutely no reason from the financial side.
I 'am sure if someone will find a heeres example from the same factory made tunics- they will be identical in cut

[Zauberflöte]

That theory doesen't work for me sorry. To me the SS Model is M 37, and M 40, both with open neck. Any of the angles on the tunic's liners, can not make the difference between heeres and SS tunics ( as I've mentioned before, it's just a difference between producer, and I'am firm with it), to me this theory looks absurd. Can you tell me for which purposes this was done? To make a difference for the collectors? I don't see the point to make two slightly different cuts in liner angles, this will make the headache for a factory owner and it is absolutely no reason from the financial side.
I 'am sure if someone will find a heeres example from the same factory made tunics- they will be identical in cut

I respectfully have to disagree with you. As long as I have not seen a horde of 2 angle Heer tunics presented I see no reason why the theory could not hold ground? I also fully subscribe to what Nick has stated in his two previous posts.

We all know different branches had their own specific production lines that made often no sense at all, both from logistic as from financial perspective. Just think about the HG and LW Felddivisions.., or the M-44 SS Dot tunic compared to the Dot Orpo tunic....and the list of examples goes on and on, even right up until the end of the conflict when standardization was becoming the rule.

So far I have not heard or seen any convincing argument proving n160 theory to be wrong but I have seen a lot to back it up.

F.

[Daniele C]

These are not hard to find on the web when you pay attention to this detail...
yes again SS (M40 with added green collar) Again 2 step SS cut !

but 2 step Heer? Just not out there...
Here (link below) a Heer M40 (with retailered M36 style collar) and yes a 3 angle!
http://aboutww2militaria.com/April20...an_tunic5.html

and SS with 3 steps (not too hard to find either...) but Heer 2 steps??? Please show them!
http://aboutww2militaria.com/SS_Special/ss_tunic.html

The second one is a M41 Heer with 6 buttons so you cant mistake that anyway for an SS

[Mike Davis]

Last night I went through a couple dozen issue Heer pre-'42 blouses. Each and every example exhibited the three angle cut to the lining components as has been discussed. Out of the lot, and there were many differences between the group, there was only one (a true Heer M40) that was cut similarly to the Waffen SS pattern - see below. But it too had the three angles, although the effect was quite subtle in this case (only).

[phild]

Last night I went through a couple dozen issue Heer pre-'42 blouses. Each and every example exhibited the three angle cut to the lining components as has been discussed. Out of the lot, and there were many differences between the group, there was only one (a true Heer M40) that was cut similarly to the Waffen SS pattern - see below. But it too had the three angles, although the effect was quite subtle in this case (only).

Good work Mike. I was wondering IF there is any pattern in how the bandage pocket button holes are formed between the Heer and SS tunics. I have not checked that many of either type for this, but I have seemed to notice that a lot of SS tunics (the several that I checked at least) have horizontal button holes and the Heer that I have checked have vertical button holes......or is it simple a random variation?

[NickG]

Heck even these guys are paying attention to such details!
= SS cut 2 angle pattern!!
Joke!

On a serious note: I still think its an interesting and believable theory and indeed like Zauberflote states:
the SS dot M44 and OrPo dot pleated uniform are examples of subtle changes that really don't make sense from a manufacturing
streamlining point of view.... so the same can be said with these liner cut differences (between the branches! = simply different contract specs!)

[Bob Hritz]

I would like to see a heer and a waffen-SS tunic made by the same manufacturer in the same year. If they have the different lining cuts, this theory may have some credibility. For now, I see it as uniform suppliers' variations.

I have original SS tunics with both types of lining styles.

Bob Hritz

[viva_giulio]

m36 modified in to m37 model.

Out of discussion about original SS tunic

[viva_giulio]

Signs of ct, previous promotion on the bottom, after promotion to Der Spiess

[Daniele C]

I would like to see a heer and a waffen-SS tunic made by the same manufacturer in the same year. If they have the different lining cuts, this theory may have some credibility. For now, I see it as uniform suppliers' variations.

I have original SS tunics with both types of lining styles.

Bob Hritz

Bob

In facts its been said followin this theory that you can find SS jackets with heere and ss lining cut probably cause ss specific uniforms were not enough to supply all ss troops.

same thing is with m42 and m43 jackets. you can find period pics of SS soldiers wearing heer pattern 3 holes 6 buttons jackets but never the opposite unless some exceptions but you know for a fact that 2 holes were for SS only.

so same thing is with ss lining jackets unless we see alot of heer untouched jackets with 2 angles lining.