Distinguishing SS M40 tunics from Heer ones

[A c h t u n g !]

n160, thank you for sharing your observation. I have both Heer and SS M40 tunics, I just compared their linings and they are exactly as you said. Below is interior of my SS M40 tunic

[NickG]

Cool stuff ! So far we have quite a few tunics appearing on this thread that follow your observation!
So your theory n160 is holding water! Great observation!!!
I honestly never paid attention to those details!

So based on their site, ATF had already figured this out...
Below images BOTH from their site on M40 and M41 lining details in "SS cut" ! Image Credit goes to ATF site!

PS: To Weisner, regarding your question...sorry maker info is illegible I'm afraid! I think maker name starts with a "W".

[NickG]

I am quoting from the ATF site:
QUOTE: M36 and M40/41 SS Tunics: Most collector's are unaware that the early production SS uniforms differ from those of the Heer. Aside from a slightly wider collar, there are half a dozen internal differences. Thus, it is nearly impossible to distinguish SS from Heer M36/40 uniforms in photos.
Unlike the later models, SS M36 and M40/41 tunics had the same number of buttons and belt hook holes. The collars are about 1/2" wider than Heer those of tunics, the lower lining panel is simpler, the skirt (from the wait to the hem) is 1-2" shorter, the pockets aren't graded (same width on all sizes), the rear lining usually lacks darts, and belt hook holes are 1cm lower.
SS M36 & SS M40 tunics are similar to their Heer counterparts, with the above mentioned changes.
SS M41: Similar to the M40, but the lining is now rayon, and the breast pockets are sewn through, like those on M43 tunics.
Continuing the Quote: Markings: I have only seen perhaps a half dozen M36's or M40's that I believed were truly SS made. Some had regular contractor markings, but no depot marks. SS made tunics had SS markings.

Must be rare! and we already have quite a few tunic examples on this thread to show these SS trates! (but not necessarily SS markings though...) Still cool stuff! Learn something new about this hobby every day!

[Kurt Meyer]

Great thread!

I'm only affraid for the future.
These ''heer'' jacket won't be for sale for a ''heer jacket price'' but I think double the price because there SS.

And like Richard said the fakers have eyes on this thread to.

But after all nice thread!

[espenlaub]

All shown above pictures are just standard Heeres M 40 issue, or just say M 40 issue. All the differences and comparitions are just a normal differences due the each factory has it's own technologist, who is developed seams, and other ways of assembling and tunics cut- they can have a big differences from each other.
Normally SS tunic has it's own model, which is generation of the previous M 37 model and has the main difference - it's open collar, 4 buttons row jacket. It must have the cuff and waist streamers, which was normally removed by the soldiers.
Otherwise all the tunics used by SS M36,40, etc is the same as a heeres tunics, just a main difference- insignia.

[espenlaub]

Cool stuff ! So far we have quite a few tunics appearing on this thread that follow your observation!
So your theory n160 is holding water! Great observation!!!
I honestly never paid attention to those details!

So based on their site, ATF had already figured this out...
Below images BOTH from their site on M40 and M41 lining details in "SS cut" ! Image Credit goes to ATF site!

PS: To Weisner, regarding your question...sorry maker info is illegible I'm afraid! I think maker name starts with a "W".

I don't see " SS cut" here, just a 2 samples of M 40 tunics.
M 41 must have a 6 buttons in row.
The viskose liner did not made from a tunic - SS tunic.
That is just a problem with suppling the cotton from Turkey due of the war
Even IMO I think SS BW markings on the tunic is just a repair on the Bekleidungswerk workshops

[besslein]

All shown above pictures are just standard Heeres M 40 issue, or just say M 40 issue. All the differences and comparitions are just a normal differences due the each factory has it's own technologist, who is developed seams, and other ways of assembling and tunics cut- they can have a big differences from each other.
Normally SS tunic has it's own model, which is generation of the previous M 37 model and has the main difference - it's open collar, 4 buttons row jacket. It must have the cuff and waist streamers, which was normally removed by the soldiers.
Otherwise all the tunics used by SS M36,40, etc is the same as a heeres tunics, just a main difference- insignia.

i have the same opinion abaut.

[TrondK]

This is a great thread. Thank you very much!

[kapitein]

Very interesting theory but already some very respected collectors are showing some doubts. I would like to see if this holds so please everybody check your collection and confirm to us your findings. Would also like to see this WSS pattern cut jacket with factory applied WH insignia without any traces of former insignia, if we can find one!
Great thread!
Kapitein

[espenlaub]

Here I will show just a couple of Heeres tunics to compare a hudge differences
Here is just a M 43 from different manufacturers

[espenlaub]

one more M 43

[espenlaub]

M 36 tunics and at least comparison with workshop repaired M 41 with shiny liner

[espenlaub]

Once found here this picture and saved it. SS M 40 being worn

[A c h t u n g !]

I always believed that people who make reproductions/copies know original staff better than even advanced collectors. At-The-Front noticed these differences between SS and Heer tunics (linings, collar, etc) and even implemented these details in production of their SS tunics. I think we shouldn't immideately start laughing at them, instead take this information more seriously and make our own research and see if it is correct. The best way IMO would be to find out if there are any untouched Heer tunics with the same "two-angle" lining, "SS-wide" collar, etc. or it is indeed can only be seen on SS tunics.

[Zauberflöte]

Very interesting, this is a new insight for me as well. As we know, only for approx 20% of the SS uniforms came from the SS-Bekleidungswerke, the rest from different manufactures and clothing facilities. Still the argument of Espenlaub holds some ground as well, I find this a difficult one. For a fact the SS garments had their own - sometimes minor specific - characteristics i.e. compare with the wrapper, M43 Keilhose etc.

I compared my M41 SS tunic (without a doubt it was never a Heer tunic as such) and it has indeed the same lining characteristics as N160 claims! The markings are hard to make out but reads Munich depot, so I always figured this to have been a initial Heer contract manufactured tunic? The lining then again is rayon and the date is faded but looks like 42-43?...with 5 button front, again indicative for SS.

Markings:

RbNr......
X 43
X
X 67
M4...

On my tunic the collar has been modified to resemble the M36 style, and although it has the wider stitching pattern on the rear of the collar (as supposingly also indicative for SS issue), I believe this is just a variation. Many Heer tunics had this feature as well and minor variations exist.

It would indeed be interesting - and case ruining perhaps? - to see Heer tunics with the same characteristics?